[foolio]

Orfantal is dead right? What a letdown. He really sucked. I was expecting more of a tiste elite soletaken...

[Blend]

foolio, on Dec 3 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

Orfantal is dead right? What a letdown. He really sucked. I was expecting more of a tiste elite soletaken...

Personally, I'm not convinced that he's dead. But I read through that part real fast, and don't have my book with me, but I got the impression that he was sorely wounded, but not necessarily dead.

[Abyss]

I'm thinking he's toasted, but hey, anything's possible. I figure taking Kallor's sword in the neck tends to be fatal. Orfi's bad for being distracted by Rake dying, but Korlat was right there more or less so maybe she got to him in time.


- Abyss, [Monty Python] He's just resting!!!! [/Monty Python]

[foolio]

it just seemed lame. What was he trying to accomplish by flying around with a dude carrying a huge two handed sword right by his neck? Why didnt it damage Kallor to dead drop a couple hundred feet out of the air? Tallons didnt damage him. I was extemely dissapointed by this sequence...I mean I thought this dude was like an elite soletaken assasin.

[Aptorian]

It was indeed a stupid death that made Korlat and Orfantal look like idiots. On the other hand it just added more cool points to the High King.

I think I remember reading that someone asked Erikson about Orfantal at the booksigning in England. Erikson said Orfantal was dead.

The strange thing is, the authors word aside, that Orfantal was a draconean soletaken. I would think this made him rather resistant to... well, death. From what we've seen dragons aswell as soletaken can take considerable damage. So it's a bit disappointing that the wound was enough to kill Orfantal. I guess you could speculate that the sword severed the jugular vein and the body wasn't able to heal up fast enough to save him from bloodloss, so Orfantal bled out in a couple of minutes.

I still don't like it.

[foolio]

it also seems like Kallor has gone from a sniveling coward who everyone thinks they can beat up on in Memory of Ice to the baddest man on the planet who can kick everones ass in TOTH.

It also seems like all of tiste andii(with the exception of Rake) came off looking like loser idiots in this book as well. Yeah I mean Orfantal was draconean right, and has been alive as a warrior for hundreds of thousands of years, and you would have thought he would have learned something. I remember in MOI when he threatend to come back for Kallor it was somehow state that Kallor looked scared. Welll in this book he is not scared of anything and especially orfantal with good reason.

This post has been edited by foolio: 03 December 2008 - 09:05 PM

[D'rek]

foolio, on Dec 3 2008, 03:47 PM, said:

it also seems like Kallor has gone from a sniveling coward who everyone thinks they can beat up on in Memory of Ice to the baddest man on the planet who can kick everones ass in TOTH.

It also seems like all of tiste andii(with the exception of Rake) came off looking like loser idiots in this book as well. Yeah I mean Orfantal was draconean right, and has been alive as a warrior for hundreds of thousands of years, and you would have thought he would have learned something. I remember in MOI when he threatend to come back for Kallor it was somehow state that Kallor looked scared. Welll in this book he is not scared of anything and especially orfantal with good reason.

We never saw Kallor after he fought WJ, so no opportunity to be scared, and I doubt he was. Makes me wonder just how he managed to "lose" his pursuers, since they can cover a ridiculous amount of ground in a day, and he was walking the length of the continent for most of TtH...

Additionally, you'd think Orfantal could do better since he did well against Raest, and that was waves of humongasaurus magic, whereas this was just a sword in the really-freaking-big dragon throat. Plus, assuming he's like Tulas, has multiple hearts when veered as a dragon, so more blood-pumping. Maybe Orfantal should've stayed veered...

[Traveller]

foolio, on Dec 3 2008, 05:04 PM, said:

it just seemed lame. What was he trying to accomplish by flying around with a dude carrying a huge two handed sword right by his neck? Why didnt it damage Kallor to dead drop a couple hundred feet out of the air? Tallons didnt damage him. I was extemely dissapointed by this sequence...I mean I thought this dude was like an elite soletaken assasin.

foolio, on Dec 3 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

it also seems like Kallor has gone from a sniveling coward who everyone thinks they can beat up on in Memory of Ice to the baddest man on the planet who can kick everones ass in TOTH.

Well, we know Kallor wasn't going to injured by talons and a drop, after

Spoiler

he survived being run through with Travellers sword.

(RCG spoiler)

I don't think he appeared as a snivelling coward in MOI - he just seemed to cultivate this image to those he was with, because he was waiting to strike at Silverfox. The disdain for him, including that from Brood, meant that they grossly underestimated him, and although they didn't trust him much, they were also a bit quick to dismiss his past.

Brood in particular was quick to show contempt, which at the time was a view we shared as generally Kallor was seen from others POV in MOI. Just two pages of Kallors POV in TTH, however, changes all that, and adds a whole new view of his character and past.

Korlat and Orfantal were guilty of underestimating him to an extent - Kallor showed some of his skill in MOI, but they were obviously arrogant enough to think that one of them would be enough to take him out alone.

I presume that they took so long to attack as they thought he'd be weakened by his night-long fight with Spinnock - Korlat didn't even bother to help, staying with Spinnock instead.

So when Kallor stuck his sword through Orfantals neck, (as he'd probably done to other dragons in the past) he knew what he was doing. (I also think there may be a significant difference between true Elient and soletaken dragons).

Kallor killed him almost nonchalantly, dusted himself off, and then went for a beer.

Awesome.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 04 December 2008 - 09:21 AM

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I assume they didnt want him dead. Orfantal could have just plummeted onto him from a great height, and splat. Kallor killing the dragon was kind of like a knee jerk reaction for me, because it seems he wasnt really in a killig mood.

[Traveller]

That was what made it awesome - i don't think he was even interested, he just acted like it was an inconvenience. When he sees Orfantal semble, stagger and fall over, Kallor just walks off, like he doesn't really care if he's alive or not.

[Jude]

Traveller, on Dec 4 2008, 03:58 AM, said:

Well, we know Kallor wasn't going to injured by talons and a drop, after

Spoiler

he survived being run through with Travellers sword.

(RCG spoiler)

I don't think he appeared as a snivelling coward in MOI - he just seemed to cultivate this image to those he was with, because he was waiting to strike at Silverfox. The disdain for him, including that from Brood, meant that they grossly underestimated him, and although they didn't trust him much, they were also a bit quick to dismiss his past.

Brood in particular was quick to show contempt, which at the time was a view we shared as generally Kallor was seen from others POV in MOI. Just two pages of Kallors POV in TTH, however, changes all that, and adds a whole new view of his character and past.

Korlat and Orfantal were guilty of underestimating him to an extent - Kallor showed some of his skill in MOI, but they were obviously arrogant enough to think that one of them would be enough to take him out alone.

I presume that they took so long to attack as they thought he'd be weakened by his night-long fight with Spinnock - Korlat didn't even bother to help, staying with Spinnock instead.

So when Kallor stuck his sword through Orfantals neck, (as he'd probably done to other dragons in the past) he knew what he was doing. (I also think there may be a significant difference between true Elient and soletaken dragons).

Kallor killed him almost nonchalantly, dusted himself off, and then went for a beer.

Awesome.

Traveller, on Dec 4 2008, 06:49 AM, said:

That was what made it awesome - i don't think he was even interested, he just acted like it was an inconvenience. When he sees Orfantal semble, stagger and fall over, Kallor just walks off, like he doesn't really care if he's alive or not.

HERE HERE! HAR HAR! I loved Orfantal's death. It was so "this doesn't even matter." A big dramtic death would have been poop. Kallor just wasting him out of nowehere and then being all "yeahhhhfuck it." made me go "N'OHHHHHH MY GOD!"

[Aleksandrov]

I agree with Traveller.

I believe it fitted in with the whole new Kallor perspective.

After failing and realising he can't take Darujhistan and Rake's burden, he really didn't care anymore. So his killing Orfantal was pretty much in tie with his current state of mind.

To be honest, I never liked Orfantal anyway, Korlat was waaaaayyy better.

[Jorram]

Aleksandrov, on Dec 4 2008, 11:43 PM, said:

I agree with Traveller.

I believe it fitted in with the whole new Kallor perspective.

After failing and realising he can't take Darujhistan and Rake's burden, he really didn't care anymore. So his killing Orfantal was pretty much in tie with his current state of mind.

To be honest, I never liked Orfantal anyway, Korlat was waaaaayyy better.

I believe nobody here argues that the sequence was at least to a good extent realistic as far as it concerns Kallor.

The problem is that is extremely not realistic as far as it concerns Orfantal. In the past, people have praised Erikson about these sudden power mismatches he so likes to do (see the showdown in RG), but to be honest it never worked for me.

The issue with Korlat&Orfantal not being able to catch Kallor earlier might be answered with Kallor's ability to travel via the Chaos Warren, granted to him (at least in the beginning of the hunt) by the CG

[foolio]

I also dont understand why rake would not want Kallor dead. He afterall betrayed them to the criple god. He is a turncoat, a bendict arnold if you will. I would think Brood and Rake would have made killing Kallor mission #1 after MOI. It just seems some plots are just completely forgotten for convenience.


What exactly did Kallor want in Darujhistan?

This post has been edited by foolio: 05 December 2008 - 03:30 PM

[Lisheo]

foolio, on Dec 5 2008, 03:29 PM, said:

I also dont understand why rake would not want Kallor dead. He afterall betrayed them to the criple god. He is a turncoat, a bendict arnold if you will. I would think Brood and Rake would have made killing Kallor mission #1 after MOI. It just seems some plots are just completely forgotten for convenience.


What exactly did Kallor want in Darujhistan?

Surely you mean a Benedict Arnold? Now if only Sir Thurdsay was around to understand what's going on

I think Rake was taught mercy by WJ. Also, while he originally intended to kill Kallor with Dragnipur, it really seems like Rake decides that Dragnipur has to be destroyed, and he also leaves it starve until its able to take Hood with no fear of pushing the Chaos back too much for him to do anything.

Kallor could sense a "throne", of what nature we can't say, but I can only guess it was the Throne of the Tyrant.

[D'rek]

Nono, Kallor was heading for Darujhistan to go to Seech's temple and become the new King in Chains, since Rhulad had just died. In fact, I'm pretty sure he didn't know anything of Rake/ST/Hood's planned goings-ons, hence his surprise when he feels Rake get Dragnipur'd while fighting Spinnock. Of course Spinnock kept him out of that convergence per Rake's wishes, and what Kallor would have done if he were in Darujhistan during that stuff is anyone's guess...

[Salt-Man Z]

Good point about MoI; Rake clearly stated then that Kallor had "earned Dragnipur".

Of course, he could have changed his mind sometime during the 27-year gap between books.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 05 December 2008 - 07:06 PM

[Abyss]

Orfie was distracted by Rake's death. He gave Kallor an opening and that is a huge mistake.

Also, Kallor has some CG mojo working for him - Orfie wasn't going to just squish him, but distratced, Orfie likely forgot that.

The sheer non-event of it all was great. It also shows that Kallor hasn't so much been running from Korlat and Orfantal and not wanting to bother with them, tho i suppose the two of them together might have been a problem, just nuking him from on high as it were.

- Abyss, ...."and then goes for a beer..."... LOL.

[Onos]

Was Orfantal actively trying to destroy Kallor? I would assume he would want to bring Kallor back to Korlat. The revenge should really be hers. Not that revenge in the end accomplished too much, but people tend to want their satisfaction. I could imagine Korlat having a long list of things she would want to do to Kallor....

So... it might just be me correcting the cognitive dissonance i felt existed there, but i viewed it as Orfantal 'capturing' Kallor, and Kallor just being in a bad mood and knowing exactly where to strike a dragon.

[Salt-Man Z]

I'm reading Caine Black Knife right now, and remembering Stalton begging Caine: "I don't want to go out like a punk."

Sorry, Orfantal, but you went out like a punk.