[Ruse]

Rashan, on Dec 5 2008, 10:22 PM, said:

Ruse, on Dec 5 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

I made a case against Omtose, at post #554.

Summary, correct me if I'm wrong, Omtose seems to be a copycat, and the reasons why he vote isn't exactly clear.

I would prefer to lay it out as follows:


1. Omtose was pointing fingers early, with nothing to back him up whatsoever, but nevertheless tried to appear very confident that he had found scum.

2. He was quick to switch votes as soon as a train came along for him to jump on, despite previously being very sure of his own case. (as an addendum, he never mentioned Korlat again after switching trains, although he has yet to post this game day)

3. His stated reasons for doing so were inconsistent and contradictory.



Which seems like a pretty decent case to me (although I would say that, wouldn't I? ).

[Gamelon]

The not mentioning Korlat is, to me, suspicious.

[Ruse]

Right, so the possibility I trailed in that earlier post regarding Mockra's reveal. Earlier on I made a summary of the possible scenarios I could see happening:

Ruse, on Dec 4 2008, 11:12 PM, said:

After initially saying I accepted the reveal (despite misreading it ), I got down to considering the possibility that he might have lied about the result from his vote. Here are the possible scenarios I came up with.


1) He's telling the truth. Implication: Gamelon is not a Ghostbuster, but is innocent (that's assuming that only hitting a Ghostbuster would entail hitting someone 'good').

2) He's actually good now because Gamelon was evil. This one doesn't really make sense - if he was good he would probably tell us about Gamelon's evilness, thus giving us the possibility of a lynch. Though he would get NKed unless one of the remaining Ghostbusters has a heal...

3) He's evil, as Gamelon is a GB. This one doesn't really make all that much sense either. If Gamelon is a GB, why clear him? Surely it would make more sense either keep quiet and try and manipulate a lynch (suspicions have already been raised about him, after all, I'm sure it would be possible to put a case together), or to declare Gamelon as evil and himself as good, and ask that he be guarded to prevent NK. Depending on whether he thought he would be believed, he might managed to kill off another GB before attention turns on him.

4) He's evil, he actually guarded a GB and ended up knowing that Gamelon was scum, letting him clear him with a fake reveal today.

Of the 4, I think 2 & 3 can probably be discounted, so it's either 1 or 4. If it were 4, I think we'd see him try and communicate who the GB he guarded was to the other scum somehow, or perhaps try and encourage some lynching action (perhaps he can talk off thread now, I don't know). Not 100% sure of the best way to eliminate/confirm #4, apart from to give him some rope to hang himself with (ie. let him live through the next night and if he doesn't get NKed, grill him mercilessly about it tomorrow). I'm not inclined to jump to the conclusion that he is scummy right now, because if I did it based on the possibility they were scum, I would be voting for everyone.

So I left off one other thing I hadn't considered (which I will call number 5), and that was that Mockra took the essence of his role and subtly changed it around - whereas he claimed that if he guarded evil he became good and visa versa, what if instead the role was instead that if he guarded evil he was turned to evil? If Gamelon was evil, he would become evil too, and it would be in his interests to try and CI themselves.

So yeah, that's a possibility. The problem is that there really is very little to make any out of 1,4 and 5 more likely than any other. It's all WIFOM from there on in. As a result, I am willing to give Mockra another night to play with - if he's telling the truth he might come in handy, if not then he'll have more rope to hang himself with. People are going to be scrutinizing the NAs he claims he made pretty heavily, after all.


EDIT: Accidentally included some new stuff in the quote, so moved it around.

This post has been edited by Ruse: 05 December 2008 - 11:08 PM

[Rashan]

Ruse, on Dec 5 2008, 11:47 PM, said:

Rashan, on Dec 5 2008, 10:22 PM, said:

Ruse, on Dec 5 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

I made a case against Omtose, at post #554.

Summary, correct me if I'm wrong, Omtose seems to be a copycat, and the reasons why he vote isn't exactly clear.

I would prefer to lay it out as follows:


1. Omtose was pointing fingers early, with nothing to back him up whatsoever, but nevertheless tried to appear very confident that he had found scum.

2. He was quick to switch votes as soon as a train came along for him to jump on, despite previously being very sure of his own case. (as an addendum, he never mentioned Korlat again after switching trains, although he has yet to post this game day)

3. His stated reasons for doing so were inconsistent and contradictory.



Which seems like a pretty decent case to me (although I would say that, wouldn't I? ).

Well, I definitely want Omtose to explain.

[Rashan]

Ruse, on Dec 6 2008, 12:04 AM, said:

So I left off one other thing I hadn't considered (which I will call number 5), and that was that Mockra took the essence of his role and subtly changed it around - whereas he claimed that if he guarded evil he became good and visa versa, what if instead the role was instead that if he guarded evil he was turned to evil? If Gamelon was evil, he would become evil too, and it would be in his interests to try and CI themselves.

So yeah, that's a possibility. The problem is that there really is very little to make any out of 1,4 and 5 more likely than any other. It's all WIFOM from there on in. As a result, I am willing to give Mockra another night to play with - if he's telling the truth he might come in handy, if not then he'll have more rope to hang himself with. People are going to be scrutinizing the NAs he claims he made pretty heavily, after all.

The problem is that there's no way, that I can think of at least, for us to know if he's lying or not. IMO keeping him alive will just add to the confusion, which will only benefit the scums. But I guess we'll see what happens.

[Rashan]

Gamelon, on Dec 5 2008, 11:33 PM, said:

Well, I, for one, am not going to reveal my character fully, for reasons I don't have to explain to you, because quite frankly you can believe Mockra and I or not.
Asking for a full role reveal...Silly, aren't We
or scum?

I wasn't asking for a reveal, I was just pointing out that there's no proof that you're inno. And I have made a choice, so far as I can at this point, not to believe you guys.

[Gamelon]

Rashan, on Dec 5 2008, 11:11 PM, said:

Ruse, on Dec 6 2008, 12:04 AM, said:

So I left off one other thing I hadn't considered (which I will call number 5), and that was that Mockra took the essence of his role and subtly changed it around - whereas he claimed that if he guarded evil he became good and visa versa, what if instead the role was instead that if he guarded evil he was turned to evil? If Gamelon was evil, he would become evil too, and it would be in his interests to try and CI themselves.

So yeah, that's a possibility. The problem is that there really is very little to make any out of 1,4 and 5 more likely than any other. It's all WIFOM from there on in. As a result, I am willing to give Mockra another night to play with - if he's telling the truth he might come in handy, if not then he'll have more rope to hang himself with. People are going to be scrutinizing the NAs he claims he made pretty heavily, after all.

The problem is that there's no way, that I can think of at least, for us to know if he's lying or not. IMO keeping him alive will just add to the confusion, which will only benefit the scums. But I guess we'll see what happens.

Call me paranoid, but there's also the rather small possibility that he just guessed I was RI and is scum. I don't know why he'd do that, except to stir up trouble, though.

[Rashan]

Ruse, on Dec 5 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

OK, so if you could explain why it was you suspected Mockra to start with (ie. before the reveal), that would be appreciated. At the moment all I see is a nice case linking Gamelon to Liosan, and then a reveal exonerating Gamelon. So yeah, that sounds kind of suspicious, but the nature of the reveal is such that it's a difficult one to come up with on the spot, which to me indicates that there are only so many ways he could be lying. (Although now that I think of it, there's one I hadn't thought of before. I'll post about it shortly).

The other problem is this: you didn't seem to make any effort to construct a case against Gamelon or Mockra, you just exploded and started making crazy, obsessive remarks (and I don't see how you can call posts like the following anything else).


If you think they're lying, you could have at least put some effort into explaining why you think they might be lying, and what you think their lies cover up.

Rashan, on Dec 4 2008, 09:43 PM, said:

Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra...

Seriously? 



There are more...I just can't be bothered to paste them in.

The point is, you want anyone to believe you, then stop throwing empty accusations around and start backing them up with something.

I have cases on them, I just haven't made multi posts with multiple quotes that look flashy and shiny.

The Mockra reveal is suspicious because it doesn't seem correct at all. Its' sole purpose seems to be to clear Gamelon, which is ridiculous, and spread confusion, which it does. If I'm right, it's the kind of stunt scums would go with so they can gain PI status and be left alone for some time. Mockra's case on Gamelon and subsequent vote for Liosan is so obviously a Gam symp - as is the 'reveal'. It doesn't make any sense at all. I don't believe it because it's so elaborate. I first noticed Gamelon, his first day play made my skin crawl, which was no secret, because I stated it clearly. That Mockra then made a case on Gamelon and then voted Liosan, for no good reason, just smells.

My case is no more elaborate than that, and it shouldn't be, because it's that simple. They're lying their pretty asses off, and can't really prove it beyond the obvious.


Edit: All that said, I can't really expect anyone to join me in this play, as I know it's close to suicide. I'd like to, but I don't expect it.

This post has been edited by Rashan: 05 December 2008 - 11:30 PM

[Ruse]

Rashan, on Dec 5 2008, 11:22 PM, said:

I have cases on them, I just haven't made multi posts with multiple quotes that look flashy and shiny.

The Mockra reveal is suspicious because it doesn't seem correct at all. Its' sole purpose seems to be to clear Gamelon, which is ridiculous, and spread confusion, which it does. If I'm right, it's the kind of stunt scums would go with so they can gain PI status and be left alone for some time. Mockra's case on Gamelon and subsequent vote for Liosan is so obviously a Gam symp - as is the 'reveal'. It doesn't make any sense at all. I don't believe it because it's so elaborate. I first noticed Gamelon, his first day play made my skin crawl, which was no secret, because I stated it clearly. That Mockra then made a case on Gamelon and then voted Liosan, for no good reason, just smells.

My case is no more elaborate than that, and it shouldn't be, because it's that simple. They're lying their pretty asses off, and can't really prove it beyond the obvious.

OK, so I can see your point of view, and I'll admit that the timing of Mockra's reveal is a bit odd. On the other hand, if you had made that case on Gamelon like Mockra did, and had the ability he claims to have, what would you do? It seems to make sense to me to check out Gamelon, especially seeing as finding a symp can be pretty difficult, and it sounds like your role can do that. He does it, and, bemused that he is still neutral and slightly embarressed to have gone after Gamelon when it turns out he is inno, he reveals, in part apology, in part in the hope that others may be able to shed some light on his role.


I can buy either scenario, you see. So my policy on this particular set of circumstances is to wait a day and see. In the mean time, I have identified someone else I think may quite possibly be scum, so I'll go after him. If more evidence comes up to make yours or someone else's a better case in my eyes, I will migrate to that one.

[Rashan]

Ruse, on Dec 6 2008, 12:35 AM, said:

Rashan, on Dec 5 2008, 11:22 PM, said:

I have cases on them, I just haven't made multi posts with multiple quotes that look flashy and shiny.

The Mockra reveal is suspicious because it doesn't seem correct at all. Its' sole purpose seems to be to clear Gamelon, which is ridiculous, and spread confusion, which it does. If I'm right, it's the kind of stunt scums would go with so they can gain PI status and be left alone for some time. Mockra's case on Gamelon and subsequent vote for Liosan is so obviously a Gam symp - as is the 'reveal'. It doesn't make any sense at all. I don't believe it because it's so elaborate. I first noticed Gamelon, his first day play made my skin crawl, which was no secret, because I stated it clearly. That Mockra then made a case on Gamelon and then voted Liosan, for no good reason, just smells.

My case is no more elaborate than that, and it shouldn't be, because it's that simple. They're lying their pretty asses off, and can't really prove it beyond the obvious.

OK, so I can see your point of view, and I'll admit that the timing of Mockra's reveal is a bit odd. On the other hand, if you had made that case on Gamelon like Mockra did, and had the ability he claims to have, what would you do? It seems to make sense to me to check out Gamelon, especially seeing as finding a symp can be pretty difficult, and it sounds like your role can do that. He does it, and, bemused that he is still neutral and slightly embarressed to have gone after Gamelon when it turns out he is inno, he reveals, in part apology, in part in the hope that others may be able to shed some light on his role.


I can buy either scenario, you see. So my policy on this particular set of circumstances is to wait a day and see. In the mean time, I have identified someone else I think may quite possibly be scum, so I'll go after him. If more evidence comes up to make yours or someone else's a better case in my eyes, I will migrate to that one.

Well, it's not that I don't see that anyone couldn't buy their respective story. But there's stuff that are sort of...not good enough. The 'Gamelon is neutral' story for instance. What do you make of that? It's something that people haven't jumped on enough IMO.

[Fener]

Rashan, on Dec 5 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

Ruse, on Dec 6 2008, 12:35 AM, said:

Rashan, on Dec 5 2008, 11:22 PM, said:

I have cases on them, I just haven't made multi posts with multiple quotes that look flashy and shiny.

The Mockra reveal is suspicious because it doesn't seem correct at all. Its' sole purpose seems to be to clear Gamelon, which is ridiculous, and spread confusion, which it does. If I'm right, it's the kind of stunt scums would go with so they can gain PI status and be left alone for some time. Mockra's case on Gamelon and subsequent vote for Liosan is so obviously a Gam symp - as is the 'reveal'. It doesn't make any sense at all. I don't believe it because it's so elaborate. I first noticed Gamelon, his first day play made my skin crawl, which was no secret, because I stated it clearly. That Mockra then made a case on Gamelon and then voted Liosan, for no good reason, just smells.

My case is no more elaborate than that, and it shouldn't be, because it's that simple. They're lying their pretty asses off, and can't really prove it beyond the obvious.

OK, so I can see your point of view, and I'll admit that the timing of Mockra's reveal is a bit odd. On the other hand, if you had made that case on Gamelon like Mockra did, and had the ability he claims to have, what would you do? It seems to make sense to me to check out Gamelon, especially seeing as finding a symp can be pretty difficult, and it sounds like your role can do that. He does it, and, bemused that he is still neutral and slightly embarressed to have gone after Gamelon when it turns out he is inno, he reveals, in part apology, in part in the hope that others may be able to shed some light on his role.


I can buy either scenario, you see. So my policy on this particular set of circumstances is to wait a day and see. In the mean time, I have identified someone else I think may quite possibly be scum, so I'll go after him. If more evidence comes up to make yours or someone else's a better case in my eyes, I will migrate to that one.

Well, it's not that I don't see that anyone couldn't buy their respective story. But there's stuff that are sort of...not good enough. The 'Gamelon is neutral' story for instance. What do you make of that? It's something that people haven't jumped on enough IMO.

Ill agree with you there. That seemed decidedly odd. I always assumed that RI's were good, and Scum were evil. In fact who uses the terms good and evil, isn't it town and scum? the odd nomenclature there is puzzling. I will give your story some credence Rashan. I still want to see where this omtose thing goes, but you now have my ear.

[Fener]

I am out for a long time. Have a good weekend everyone

[Fener]

Rashan, on Dec 5 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

Ruse, on Dec 5 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

OK, so if you could explain why it was you suspected Mockra to start with (ie. before the reveal), that would be appreciated. At the moment all I see is a nice case linking Gamelon to Liosan, and then a reveal exonerating Gamelon. So yeah, that sounds kind of suspicious, but the nature of the reveal is such that it's a difficult one to come up with on the spot, which to me indicates that there are only so many ways he could be lying. (Although now that I think of it, there's one I hadn't thought of before. I'll post about it shortly).

The other problem is this: you didn't seem to make any effort to construct a case against Gamelon or Mockra, you just exploded and started making crazy, obsessive remarks (and I don't see how you can call posts like the following anything else).


If you think they're lying, you could have at least put some effort into explaining why you think they might be lying, and what you think their lies cover up.

Rashan, on Dec 4 2008, 09:43 PM, said:

Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra Lynch Mockra...

Seriously?



There are more...I just can't be bothered to paste them in.

The point is, you want anyone to believe you, then stop throwing empty accusations around and start backing them up with something.

I have cases on them, I just haven't made multi posts with multiple quotes that look flashy and shiny.

The Mockra reveal is suspicious because it doesn't seem correct at all. Its' sole purpose seems to be to clear Gamelon, which is ridiculous, and spread confusion, which it does. If I'm right, it's the kind of stunt scums would go with so they can gain PI status and be left alone for some time. Mockra's case on Gamelon and subsequent vote for Liosan is so obviously a Gam symp - as is the 'reveal'. It doesn't make any sense at all. I don't believe it because it's so elaborate. I first noticed Gamelon, his first day play made my skin crawl, which was no secret, because I stated it clearly. That Mockra then made a case on Gamelon and then voted Liosan, for no good reason, just smells.

My case is no more elaborate than that, and it shouldn't be, because it's that simple. They're lying their pretty asses off, and can't really prove it beyond the obvious.


Edit: All that said, I can't really expect anyone to join me in this play, as I know it's close to suicide. I'd like to, but I don't expect it.

oops 1 more thing,

@Rashan If you think thay the Mockra reveal is an obvious Gam symp, why are you so adamant about the Mockra lynch? Shouldn't you be begging us to lynch gamelon?

[Rashan]

Fener, on Dec 6 2008, 02:30 AM, said:

oops 1 more thing,

@Rashan If you think thay the Mockra reveal is an obvious Gam symp, why are you so adamant about the Mockra lynch? Shouldn't you be begging us to lynch gamelon?

As you can see in my previous posts I have contemplated voting for either of them. The symping thing could be a scum helping his fellow scum, which is what I believe is the correct way to see this. This is not some regular symping story, it's a full blown scum setup. I'd got for Gamelon if you want to, because for me it doesn't matter, because I think they're both scum, with CF's to go with it.


I've been up way too long, see y'all tomorrow.

[Gamelon]

Rashan, on Dec 6 2008, 02:28 AM, said:

Fener, on Dec 6 2008, 02:30 AM, said:

oops 1 more thing,

@Rashan If you think thay the Mockra reveal is an obvious Gam symp, why are you so adamant about the Mockra lynch? Shouldn't you be begging us to lynch gamelon?

As you can see in my previous posts I have contemplated voting for either of them. The symping thing could be a scum helping his fellow scum, which is what I believe is the correct way to see this. This is not some regular symping story, it's a full blown scum setup. I'd got for Gamelon if you want to, because for me it doesn't matter, because I think they're both scum, with CF's to go with it.


I've been up way too long, see y'all tomorrow.

All I can say is after my role has been more or less revealed, not a fancy one either, by someone else, when I clarify, if I get lynched for fucking symping/whatever, when my ROLE NAME, NOT CF comes up and you LEARN virtually nothing except to listen to me next time, I'll be really pissed. I'll be able to stomach the lynch of Slimer, because his role mechanics are potentially dangerous to the innos, if that is how his role works, but when I encode my name and the fucking person who played me in the movie (Wikipedia is my friend) it's just completely detrimental to the innos.
Anyway. Good night Rashan.

[Silanah]

Just a brief check in for the weekend break. Don't have much time today but will be back around tomorrow. I agree with the above comments about Omtose I think its the best thing we have going at the moment until we actually hear from him, so looking forward to that. He's been strangely silent though unfortunately.

[Kessobahn]

REmove Vote Vote Mockra

[Kaschan]

Kessobahn, on Dec 5 2008, 08:22 PM, said:

REmove Vote Vote Mockra

.... OK. Can't entirely fault you for wanting to get rid of our wildcard, as I suspect you're RI.

No change on my part though, I'm just checking in before the weekend, which most of you already seem to be on. Partaking in. Drunker'n me. On to the next martini.

[Gamelon]

Checking in. WOn't be back for a while, I suspect. Party.

[Emurlahn]

Well, I finished reading up since I became drunk thursday night. For me, it's currently a 30/70 split between following up on Ruse and following Rashan's case, although when I follow Rashan, I'd vote for Gamelon first then, not for Mockra.

1) With the case Ruse made, I have one problem. It's not so much with the case itself (which is a good one), it's with the behaviour. Why would anyone (scum or not) be so desperate to be on a train that he/she would change stories at the drop of a hat? It does paint a big questionmark over your head, and Ruse was good enough to find it and comment on it. As an Inno, I'd avoid that as it makes you seem scummy, as scum you know it makes you scummy so why not stick to your previous target? Weird, weird move, especially since there's always the escape of 'I want a lynch, we need the info, the train I'll jump on is the only one that's going to get us a lynch, so here I am!'
He didn't use that either.

2) Rashan has a good point, in that the Mockra reveal, ambiguous as it was, is basically a 'plead inno for Gamelon'.
What if he had guarded Game, changed the content of his role PM/mechanic (legal), became scum and used it to PI Gamelon?

Situational sketch:
2 Ghostbusters down, scum on a 100% score, and Mockra has enough of a chance to be in the winning team with an evil alignment.

Tactics:
As long as he doesn't block anyone else, (which is exactly what he promised us) he'll maintain his current alignment.
Since scum has +1 person through him, victory is also reached that much faster: a full day. Lynch Gamelon, he cried, so that I am certain of my alignment. Such a selfish desire would never be followed up, but it did make sure that he would be seen to not care one wit about Gamelon... handy as distancing and not appearing sympish after PI'ing Game.

'Proof':
If we asked him to block person X, he'd agree, then just not block or block Gamelon again (if he's a killer and there's more than 1 killer, it wouldn't matter anyway).

Counterproof:
The only way to prove him wrong is for the person who wasn't blocked by Mockra to have an ability that goes through with a certifyable result: vig or finder, I'd say. Guard usually isn't told, same for healer, it's basically a lucky guess there. So, what then, hmm? Reveal to expose Mockra?
That's beneficial for the killers, another roled inno out in the open. We'd lynch Mockra, he'd come up as slimer, and according to the role PM he gave us, that would CI Gamelon (since hey, Mockra was scum, so Game was inno, and of course Game trusted him, since Mockra got his alignment right!)

The alternative, lynching Mockra:
Equally beneficial for team evil, if we lynch Mockra now, what do we get? A result confirming he is Slimer, showing us he didn't lie about that. It would then be up to us to go into WIFOM territory: did he lie about his role, or didn't he? And what does that make Gamelon? Dead or not, Mockra would keep the scum tag in spoiler heaven and win when team evil wins.

Protective measures are being taken:
Lastly, Game is making a really big deal publicly out of being a small fry that he didn't even know was in the movie. Well, that tactic has been used before. Role + actor are easy to find (wiki is your friend), and if the role is small enough, it 'means' it's only applicable to a Roleless Inno, right? Right. It also means it is unlikely to get a counter reveal which would be a righteous fuck up and will get both scum + inno lynched to see who's right and who is wrong. I think this has been tried in the Aliens game, too, it was then with the prison warden I think... who was in Alien 3 and not in Aliens.

So,

vote Gamelon it is.

Of course, my follow up on Rashan's posts is purely seen from an 'if, then' scenario, with no textual proof. But, if the two of them play a good game, that slip will never come, or not now.

Whatever the reveal was, the results are undeniable: Game comes up as PI, Mockra as a role with an edge who's unsure what to do with it, and how to utilize it. Appear harmless, it's a good tactic. Also, as D'riss said, the slimer role is awesome, so why blow it up right now, day 2, by revealing?
You do that if you (or your team) stand to gain by it, and I think it is because Mockra has achieved what he wants to achieve: evil status. After all, the way he stated his role and his current situation (unaligned), no-one stood to gain by it: not team inno, not team scum, and least of all, Mockra himself.