[Grief]

If it took no effort, how come he lost a finger in the process?

[BeLeG]

he lost two fingers and imho that was a plot device for Brys to come back

anyway,when you read that part did you get the impression that Brys was hard pressed?

[AlanH]

I'll start of by apologising, in case I am repeating what someone else has said already. The thread is 23 pages long, and it would take too long to read.

So I have a few names for your list. Kalam, Cotillion, Apsalar, Rallick Nom, and Cutter.

They aren't swordsman, per say, but if Trull is included, I would say they are just as skilled fighters. So if they were to be included, I would put Kalam above Cotillion, and then Apsalar after Cotillion, and then Cutter and then Rallick. I think Apsalar is hard to place, as although she killed hundreds of the Claws in Bonehunters, and Shadowthrone says she was as good as Cotillion, without the shadow dance thing, would she be as good? And Cutter is above Rallick because of the scene in TtH. Kalam is above Cotillion because people talk about how Cotillion would think twice about picking a fight with him.

Just my thoughts. Anyone agree?

[AlanH]

Also, after reading some more of the thread, I remembered that Rake fought with the Seguleh, and he go to, I think, seven. Therefore theoretically, there are at least 6 better swordsmen/women than him.

[Aptorian]

Grief, on Feb 16 2009, 12:07 AM, said:

If it took no effort, how come he lost a finger in the process?

I believe he lost those fingers deflecting a strike when the sword managed to act of its own will, surprising Brys. Not often you come face to face with homocidal swords with their own mind.

Anyway I thought Brys just deflecting the blow with his hand, and the detatched way he experienced it, showed how capable and knowledgable of sword tactics that he is. He was the Kings Champion. His only mission was to make sure to kill the Edur Emperor to protect his king, his hand be damned.

AlanH, on Feb 16 2009, 01:54 AM, said:

I'll start of by apologising, in case I am repeating what someone else has said already. The thread is 23 pages long, and it would take too long to read.

So I have a few names for your list. Kalam, Cotillion, Apsalar, Rallick Nom, and Cutter.

They aren't swordsman, per say, but if Trull is included, I would say they are just as skilled fighters. So if they were to be included, I would put Kalam above Cotillion, and then Apsalar after Cotillion, and then Cutter and then Rallick. I think Apsalar is hard to place, as although she killed hundreds of the Claws in Bonehunters, and Shadowthrone says she was as good as Cotillion, without the shadow dance thing, would she be as good? And Cutter is above Rallick because of the scene in TtH. Kalam is above Cotillion because people talk about how Cotillion would think twice about picking a fight with him.

Just my thoughts. Anyone agree?

I think that assassins have no place in this list because they're not using swords. It's as easy as that.

The reason to why Trull keeps getting brought back up is that he managed to get involved in quite a few fights, among them some of the stronger sword fighters Icarium and Silchas Ruin.

But since you brought it up, Cotillion and Apsalar need to be in front of Kalam. Even despite their shadow dancing abilities, which can't just be ignored, Cotillion is the greatest assassin/knife fighter there was. Kalam himself notes after their attack on the Bidithals group in HoC that Cots skill scares him. And Aps is a carbon copy of Cotillion so she also beats Kalam.

AlanH, on Feb 16 2009, 02:01 AM, said:

Also, after reading some more of the thread, I remembered that Rake fought with the Seguleh, and he go to, I think, seven. Therefore theoretically, there are at least 6 better swordsmen/women than him.

Oh noes, not again!

This was discussed earlier and it really is a sore topic.

It is really bad logic to assume that Seguleh one through six are better than Rake just because he left the island after kiling the 7th. Rake left because he had no reason to fight the seguleh and he was geting tired after chopping down one seguleh after another.

[HoosierDaddy]

Apt is a fast editor.

Also, Brys' mission was to NOT kill the Emperor. Not killing a swordsman whose sword is on its own badass level while still having to disable the swordsman is supreme skill. I don't get why people say: "It'd be easy..." He couldn't miss with a single strike, and he didn't. That is pretty damned amazing for a sword to be used like a scalpel.

Edit: Didn't mean that to sound bad Apt. Rather impressive actually.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 16 February 2009 - 09:32 AM

[Aptorian]

Oh right, sorry, not killed, incapacitate the emperor.

[muco]

blackzoid, on Feb 15 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

Instead of answering my question, you have once again changed the goalposts into now being about when Karsa's guard was breached. You don't respsond to my points but change what the argument is about.
I asked for fights against top swordsmen. You bring up breaching of his guard against Icarium and Edur of mediocre level. (I am including Rhulad in this as he relied on his unkillable factor, not his skill level)
Dassem has killed scores of medicore Edur, Mok/Tool killed scores of mediocre Pannions.
Don't think their guard was ever breached.

But very well:
As stated by another poster, Karsa relied on strength/reach of his arms, not sword skill to take out the Segulah. He stamped the ground, then picked her up.
So yes, technically, she didn't breach his guard. But he certainly wasn't relying on skill with a sword there.
For Icarium, he didn't breach Karsa's guard either. Karsa was able to knock him out. However, their swords only clashed ONCE. There was no repeated parries. Is that really classified as a sword fight? Since Karsa's sword was broken after the first clash of blades its a bit of an exaggeration to state that Icarium could not therefore breach Karsa's guard. We would have to leave that as a "don't know" At least with Trull we had repeated parries against Icarium. Not Karsa.

(Rhulad did actually breach Karsa's guard when his sword went through Karsa's leg, but that may hae been necessary for Karsa to journey to the Crippled God's island. So I won't mention that one)

No, Karsa is nowhere near the top level of Sword fighting skill.
And how about responding to my arguments eh? Now that I have responded to yours. And don't change the frame of debate again.
Silchas Ruin > Karsa . I did prove it logically after all.

huh...I am sorry I didn't know Icarium was of mediocre level.

And you seriously are not saying Karsa didn't display skill with the sword against the Seguleg?!! We must have definitly read different books. It was not as if Karsa immediately stomped his ground and broke her. There was actually a sword fight there. consider this..in ROTCG, Iron Bars didn't even have a clue against someone who was like 200th of something like that. This was the 11th Karsa was fighting.

And the same with Rhulad...Rhulad did everything he could possibly do and didn't even scratch Karsa. That was a long fight. Rhulad is not in the same class as Dassem but he doesn't need to be if Karsa is not as good for a breach of guard.

And your logic with the the whole Silchas ruin, sorry buddy it doesn't cut. I could counter that by saying Karsa strangled a derogath, Silchas in any form would not match up Karsa physically and his magic, I will say will have minimal effect on Karsa. What then?

You asked me to show proof how good Karsa is with a sword and I have. Its not my fault if no one actaully lasts long enough against Karsa to test mettle.

Meh...Dassem himself states Karsa scares him. I wouldn't argue that.

[blackzoid]

muco, on Feb 16 2009, 09:24 AM, said:

blackzoid, on Feb 15 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

Instead of answering my question, you have once again changed the goalposts into now being about when Karsa's guard was breached. You don't respsond to my points but change what the argument is about.
I asked for fights against top swordsmen. You bring up breaching of his guard against Icarium and Edur of mediocre level. (I am including Rhulad in this as he relied on his unkillable factor, not his skill level)
Dassem has killed scores of medicore Edur, Mok/Tool killed scores of mediocre Pannions.
Don't think their guard was ever breached.

But very well:
As stated by another poster, Karsa relied on strength/reach of his arms, not sword skill to take out the Segulah. He stamped the ground, then picked her up.
So yes, technically, she didn't breach his guard. But he certainly wasn't relying on skill with a sword there.
For Icarium, he didn't breach Karsa's guard either. Karsa was able to knock him out. However, their swords only clashed ONCE. There was no repeated parries. Is that really classified as a sword fight? Since Karsa's sword was broken after the first clash of blades its a bit of an exaggeration to state that Icarium could not therefore breach Karsa's guard. We would have to leave that as a "don't know" At least with Trull we had repeated parries against Icarium. Not Karsa.

(Rhulad did actually breach Karsa's guard when his sword went through Karsa's leg, but that may hae been necessary for Karsa to journey to the Crippled God's island. So I won't mention that one)

No, Karsa is nowhere near the top level of Sword fighting skill.
And how about responding to my arguments eh? Now that I have responded to yours. And don't change the frame of debate again.
Silchas Ruin > Karsa . I did prove it logically after all.

huh...I am sorry I didn't know Icarium was of mediocre level.

And you seriously are not saying Karsa didn't display skill with the sword against the Seguleg?!! We must have definitly read different books. It was not as if Karsa immediately stomped his ground and broke her. There was actually a sword fight there. consider this..in ROTCG, Iron Bars didn't even have a clue against someone who was like 200th of something like that. This was the 11th Karsa was fighting.

And the same with Rhulad...Rhulad did everything he could possibly do and didn't even scratch Karsa. That was a long fight. Rhulad is not in the same class as Dassem but he doesn't need to be if Karsa is not as good for a breach of guard.

And your logic with the the whole Silchas ruin, sorry buddy it doesn't cut. I could counter that by saying Karsa strangled a derogath, Silchas in any form would not match up Karsa physically and his magic, I will say will have minimal effect on Karsa. What then?

You asked me to show proof how good Karsa is with a sword and I have. Its not my fault if no one actaully lasts long enough against Karsa to test mettle.

Meh...Dassem himself states Karsa scares him. I wouldn't argue that.

1: Stop bringing up Deragoth/Hounds of Light/Hounds of Darkness! They are freaking dogs! What the hell do they have to do with sword fighting?

2: Countering my Silchas Ruin swordfighting example with a non-swordfighting strangulation example is insane. You ignored the fact that the beings Silcahs Ruin fought were Toblaki GODS. Hence they have to be as least as strong as Karsa. And they would have the same magical resitant effects as him. Plus we know that Silcas killed them with his swords, not magic.
Please address facts, not conveniently ignore them when they don't agree with your interpretation.

3: Rhulad is not an amazing sword fighter. He is ok. Not amazing. He is beaten many times, hence why he dies a lot. And I guess I will have to bring up the fact that he DID breach Karsa's guard. Since you seem to lack the basic idea of debating on facts, I'll use unfair facts that are inconvenient to your argument.

4: Against' Icarium, do yuu deny that their swords clashed only once? Because thats what happened.

5: The Segulah fight.
The sequence of the fight was:
Karsa stamps the ground.
Their swords clash and her wrists break.
He picks her up.
Do you deny this sequence of events?

Once again a sword fight not decided by swordfighting skill on Karsa's part. It was decided on his stamping the ground, breaking her wrists with his strength and his reach by picking her up.
I am not denying its skill from Karsa, but its not SWORDFIGHTING SKILL.

"Meh...Dassem himself states Karsa scares him. I wouldn't argue that."
And Karsa himsself could not see Dassem's sword parries or stand between Rake and Dassem. More facts to be ignored I guess?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 16 February 2009 - 11:27 AM

[Aptorian]

Guys, chill out, calm down, take a deep breath. No need to get aggressive over a book argument, keep the discussion civil or take a break. If you can't behave the gods will close the thread.

Some comments on Muco and Blacks posts:

Yes, Karsa didn't defeat the 11th in a fair sword fight, but I don't think that is the main point there. If an attacker is able to bring the opponent out of stance, and basically treat her like a child, then that opponent isn't really as dangerous as the other opponent. There's the question of finesse, like blues or Brys, and there's the question of being the most lethal like Karsa or Skinner. If your opponent can punch you in the face before you strike them with their blade, you're probably not the most dangerous, that includes a swordfight. Improvising is a good skill in any fight. No one expects the characters to have a duel like proper english gentlemen.

Besides which, if the opponent you're fighting with can brake your wrists if you parry(sp?) then you're pretty much fucked if the opponent is also faster than you. And Karsa is fast.

The tharthenal gods can't really be compared with Karsa, because we haven't seen them fight anything that Karsa has thought. That would be the only legitemat means of gauging their skill. Besides, it seemed to me that the Sereghal were actually using magic as they had begun some kind of chant when Iron Bars barged in and kicked their ass.

Rhulad didn't breach Karsa's guard so much as the sword just suddenly attacked out of the blue, something you can't really predict or guard yourself against.

Silchas Ruin's magic isn't really a question in a sword fight, unless we're guessing he can magically augment his strength. Which he probably can... then what?

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Feb 16 2009, 11:32 AM, said:

Guys, chill out, calm down, take a deep breath. No need to get aggressive over a book argument, keep the discussion civil or take a break. If you can't behave the gods will close the thread.

Some comments on Muco and Blacks posts:

Yes, Karsa didn't defeat the 11th in a fair sword fight, but I don't think that is the main point there. If an attacker is able to bring the opponent out of stance, and basically treat her like a child, then that opponent isn't really as dangerous as the other opponent. There's the question of finesse, like blues or Brys, and there's the question of being the most lethal like Karsa or Skinner. If your opponent can punch you in the face before you strike them with their blade, you're probably not the most dangerous, that includes a swordfight. Improvising is a good skill in any fight. No one expects the characters to have a duel like proper english gentlemen.

Besides which, if the opponent you're fighting with can brake your wrists if you parry(sp?) then you're pretty much fucked if the opponent is also faster than you. And Karsa is fast.

The tharthenal gods can't really be compared with Karsa, because we haven't seen them fight anything that Karsa has thought. That would be the only legitemat means of gauging their skill. Besides, it seemed to me that the Sereghal were actually using magic as they had begun some kind of chant when Iron Bars barged in and kicked their ass.

Rhulad didn't breach Karsa's guard so much as the sword just suddenly attacked out of the blue, something you can't really predict or guard yourself against.

Silchas Ruin's magic isn't really a question in a sword fight, unless we're guessing he can magically augment his strength. Which he probably can... then what?

"Yes, Karsa didn't defeat the 11th in a fair sword fight, but I don't think that is the main point there. If an attacker is able to bring the opponent out of stance, and basically treat her like a child, then that opponent isn't really as dangerous as the other opponent. There's the question of finesse, like blues or Brys, and there's the question of being the most lethal like Karsa or Skinner. If your opponent can punch you in the face before you strike them with their blade, you're probably not the most dangerous, that includes a swordfight. Improvising is a good skill in any fight. No one expects the characters to have a duel like proper english gentlemen."

But..... is that sword fighting skill or strength? Thats my point. The thread is about swordfighting skill not strength.

"Rhulad didn't breach Karsa's guard so much as the sword just suddenly attacked out of the blue, something you can't really predict or guard yourself against."

So it was fast, faster then the naked eye like the Rake/Dassem parries?

T"he tharthenal gods can't really be compared with Karsa, because we haven't seen them fight anything that Karsa has thought. That would be the only legitemat means of gauging their skill. Besides, it seemed to me that the Sereghal were actually using magic as they had begun some kind of chant when Iron Bars barged in and kicked their ass."

And what has Karsa fought? Deragoth, KCCM (in brawls). Icarium for one sword clash and a punch to the head. Edur.
Has Karsa fought a Draconian Ascendent? We can't give Karsa a leg up and assume that he will do better then 3 members of his own species.

"Silchas Ruin's magic isn't really a question in a sword fight, unless we're guessing he can magically augment his strength. Which he probably can... then what?"

All of Rhulad's skill was got from magical augmentation. That only brought him up to ok level. He still died multiple times against opponents.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 16 February 2009 - 11:48 AM

[Tapper]

The point with Rhulad was that he had to die until there was no-one left to die against. He was - theoretically - able to outfight any single opponent by dying and returning to life again... with maybe the exception of Icarium, who could probably rage on until the end of days. As such, Rhulad being mediocre or not the best even after hundreds of champions is not the point, as it is irrelevant to the way his weapon worked.

Karsa is one of the strongest swordsmen around, period. He has very few shortcomings, incredible resilience to punishment and more power, reach and stamina than anyone he faces. I'd say that he's at an advantage due to that against Seguleh and warriors like Blues, who rely on speed and precision mainly.

Dassem should be able to withstand him, Icarium in a rage should be, and I think Skinner's powerful style of fighting as described by ICE and armour may make him a tougher cookie to chew than the 11th was - where the 11th might be able to best Skinner or touch him multiple times, because there's less of a difference in strength.

But you can't disconnect any of this away from skill and get a pure list... why should power not count, but speed do? Either is very important to a personal style. Or call a warrior who goes for certain parts of the anatomy rather than chopping off a whole limb more skillfull? Both have to get a solid hit in.

Weapon styles are connected to the physique of the warrior, and specific weapons are created for specific builds. You don't arm a midget with a two hander - likewise, Karsa would be unhappy with a rapier.

Also, Rake was the best. Although I root for Mok to pull some stunts in the future.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 16 February 2009 - 12:05 PM

[Aptorian]

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

But..... is that sword fighting skill or strength? Thats my point. The thread is about swordfighting skill not strength.

Actually the thread is about the best swordfighters. Now we're getting into semantics, but I'd argue that there's more to a fight/duel between two men with a sword than just how well they sling the blade. There's footwork, strength, speed, ability to improvise, tactics, etc. If you can defeat your opponent, by punching him out, picking him up, sneezing on him, before he can react... then I think you have the advantage.

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

So it was fast, faster then the naked eye like the Rake/Dassem parries?

Yeah, but that was a magical sword, that attacked from an impossible angle, that Karsa couldn't predict. Not an actual opponent. And still there's the question if Karsa didn't simply allow that strike? Remember he is not as vulnerable to trauma as a human being.

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

And what has Karsa fought? Deragoth, KCCM (in brawls). Icarium for one sword clash and a punch to the head. Edur.
Has Karsa fought a Draconian Ascendent? We can't give Karsa a leg up and assume that he will do better then 3 members of his own species.

But just because the Sereghal were the same race, sort of, as Karsa doesn't make them his equal. That like saying Karsa could kill Dassem because he's killed plenty of other swordfighters.

Karsa, as far as we know, is the greatest thing to come out of the TTT genepool since Icarium was concieved(don't start ). He is as far as we can tell a very formidable creature even for the old TTTs. The Sereghal were probably not actual TTTs but just vanilla Tharthenal warlords that became worshipped once upon a time.

And again we can't legitimatly compare Karsa and the Sereghal because we haven't seen them fight something in the same category. It doesn't matter that Ruin is a higher class than the Deragoth or a KCCM.

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

All of Rhulad's skill was got from magical augmentation. That only brought him up to ok level. He still died multiple times against opponents.

Uhm, yes, but now we're talking about Silchas Ruin who already is an amazing fighter. My argument was that it doesn't matter how strong Karsa is, Ruin probably has the strength/power to take Karsa head on, no wrists breaking or anything.

EDIT: Tapper good point in there also being a difference between fighting with a gigantic twohander and smaller, more nimble weapons.

[muco]

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

3: Rhulad is not an amazing sword fighter. He is ok. Not amazing. He is beaten many times, hence why he dies a lot. And I guess I will have to bring up the fact that he DID breach Karsa's guard. Since you seem to lack the basic idea of debating on facts, I'll use unfair facts that are inconvenient to your argument.

5: The Segulah fight.
The sequence of the fight was:
Karsa stamps the ground.
Their swords clash and her wrists break.
He picks her up.
Do you deny this sequence of events?

"Meh...Dassem himself states Karsa scares him. I wouldn't argue that."
And Karsa himsself could not see Dassem's sword parries or stand between Rake and Dassem. More facts to be ignored I guess?

**deep breath** sorry if I was little bit cross in my previous post

In RG, during the fight with Karsa, Rhulad was said to be having extraordinary skill. Well, definitly not in the top league but extraordinary does mean in tier 2 or at worst tier 3. And if Karsa as you say belonged in this tier, my argument is, Rhulad should have breached his defences atleast once. It was not be.

The seguleh fight...the sequence you described is wrong.
They both fight with swords initially.
Karsa stomps the ground after a bit. then the rest of the stuff.

Regarding Dassem, I am not ignoring anything. I am placing these guys in the same bracket. Karsa scares Dassem and Karsa in turn is awed by Dassem's skill. See..where I am getting at. I am placing them equal.

A sword fight in view is all about taking advantage of the attributes you have got. Thats my view of the best swordsman. No point in saying Karsa does not fight like the Seguleh or does not have the quickness of Rake or Dassem hence not the best.

Just a thought on Karsa's magic resistance. Shadowthrone does comment on this. It seems like its not commom to find some one like Karsa who resists magic, hence I think the whole chat between Karsa and ST&Cott. At this point I am not sure how Karsa will react to magic at all. Just brought up the Derogath, in case Silchas decides to turn into a dragon to attack Karsa which may or may not work out for Silchas.

[Aptorian]

Personally I don't think Karsa would survive a full blast of dragon breath from the likes of Silchas Ruin. Normal vanilla feral dragon may be a different matter...

Anyway, not a topic for this thread... bad apt! BAD!

[blackzoid]

I'm going to bring up a few points.

1: The thread title is about swordfighting skill, NOT swordfighting strength/power, nor who are the best sword fighters. Is strength/reach really a skill? Sometime that you acquire more of over time? Remember people, its about swordfighting skill. Nothing else.
So yes, it is only about how fast you swing the sword and how well you block other people's moves.
Otherwise I would say Karsa is up there. Its just that ye all seem to be forgetting the thread title.
2: The thread is not about fighting Deragoth or dragons. Its about 2 guys fighting with big sharp metal/stone implements. Forget everything else.
3: The 3 TTT that Ruin fought were pureblood. They were from the time of the KCCM. Thats a long time ago. Way before the bloodlines got diluted. They were worshipped by the Tharthenal of Letheras but were not of that time period. Therefore they are at least as strong as Karsa.
4: Rhulad did in fact breach his guard with the sword.
Was Karsa just fighting the sword then and not Rhulad? If Karsa is as good as you all say he is at skill, he should have being able to block that move regardless. (But I'm willing to negotiate on this as Karsa may have wanted that to happen)
5: The Segulah 11th. I don't have the book handy,so how many sword parries were there before her wrists broke? And I'm almost certain he stamped the ground first.

Not trying to pick a fight with you muco. We are all friends here.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 16 February 2009 - 12:37 PM

[AlanH]

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 12:27 PM, said:

I'm going to bring up a few points.

1: The thread title is about swordfighting skill, NOT swordfighting strength/power, nor who are the best sword fighters. Is strength/reach really a skill? Sometime that you acquire more of over time? Remember people, its about swordfighting skill. Nothing else.
Otherwise I would say Karsa is up there. Its just that ye all seem to be forgetting the thread title.

The thread is about sword fighting ability, yet this is more than just how fancily you can wave around a piece of metal/stone. You can't include Brys with his speed and accuracy, yet ignore Karsa because he is speedy and strong. Who would win in a fight is determined by more than how well you can move around the piece of metal. Karsa would destroy Brys, simply because he is as fast and a hell of a lot stronger.

You don't win in a fight by wanting to duel with everyone, no matter how good you are at deuling. As Cutter showed Gorlas.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Feb 16 2009, 08:09 AM, said:

Oh noes, not again!

This was discussed earlier and it really is a sore topic.

It is really bad logic to assume that Seguleh one through six are better than Rake just because he left the island after kiling the 7th. Rake left because he had no reason to fight the seguleh and he was geting tired after chopping down one seguleh after another.

Not mention that Rake wasn't activly seeking out the top ranked Seguleh. He was merely wandering around, fighting those that challanged him. If he had bumped into Mok at a local hotdog stand, he wouldn't have turned down the fight because he hadn't faced off against numbers 4, 5, and 6 yet.
If he was actively trying fight the best he would have magicked himself into a face to face meeting with the Seguleh First, had the fight and left.

[blackzoid]

AlanH, on Feb 16 2009, 12:36 PM, said:

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 12:27 PM, said:

I'm going to bring up a few points.

1: The thread title is about swordfighting skill, NOT swordfighting strength/power, nor who are the best sword fighters. Is strength/reach really a skill? Sometime that you acquire more of over time? Remember people, its about swordfighting skill. Nothing else.
Otherwise I would say Karsa is up there. Its just that ye all seem to be forgetting the thread title.

The thread is about sword fighting ability, yet this is more than just how fancily you can wave around a piece of metal/stone. You can't include Brys with his speed and accuracy, yet ignore Karsa because he is speedy and strong. Who would win in a fight is determined by more than how well you can move around the piece of metal. Karsa would destroy Brys, simply because he is as fast and a hell of a lot stronger.

You don't win in a fight by wanting to duel with everyone, no matter how good you are at deuling. As Cutter showed Gorlas.

But..... but the thread title...is strength a skill?.... would Karsa be as good if he was in a human body?......Rake/Dassem/Tool probably would be....Karsa never fights other Teblor withswords......etc etc etc.....never mind.

I'm out of this lads.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 16 February 2009 - 12:47 PM

[Aptorian]

I don't think the thread would leave room for much discussion if we could only discuss the merrits of bouts where only skill was shown and no other factors like being undead, a god, being big, having a special sword, having spearbutt deflecting boots on, etc don't come into account.

The fact that it isn't fair that Karsa is a big, bad barbarian doesn't change the fact that he would still defeat most of the known swordmen in a fight. That's just the way it is.

So says the Karsa fanboy.