[Bauchelain the Evil]

malaz master, on Jan 18 2009, 01:19 AM, said:

As for Karsa, the consensus here (as I gathered) is that he's still a bit below both Dassem and Rake, probably in the Skinner/Blues category. He has a mighty will, and he is veery strong, but that doesn't neccesary make him the best swordsman. He is world-class, I'll give you that
..

I don't think Karsa should be rated high as a swordman. From what I understand he wins his fight because he's virtually indestructible,incredibly strong and too stubborn to loose not because he's a great duellist. In fact I do think tha he's just a midling swordman ,nothing exceptional

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Jan 18 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

Just noticed you put Iron Bars in third tier of swordfighters. I don't know. Iron Bars is good. The scene where he tears Rhulads retinue to pieces seems to me shoved a guy who not only is deadly with the sword but can kill you in any way imaginable. I think he's second tier.

I also have a problem with you putting the untried Brys in the 1st tier but then leaving the likes of MoK and Ruin, probably also Rekk in the second tier. Ruin is probably Rakes equal in a fight. Mok is a challenger to the first, he tore Tool apart with no difficulty.

I have to disagree somewhat about Iron Bars. While killing multiple Tiste Edur is impressive, didn't Rhulad's retinue consist mostly of Rhulad's old friends? essentiallly young punks that Rhulad himself used to beat pre sword experience.
I agree that Brys should not elevated about the likes of Mok and Silchas Ruin, (although, I do feel that Ruin is Rake's inferior in pretty much everything). Sure, Brys did some impressive stuff against Rhulad, but honestly Rhulad isn't exactly all that... Some random Tartenhal(Sp?) guy kills him seven times. It's the unkillable thing that makes him special not skills.

[Seguleh 1st]

both true, but, iron bars not simply went up there and killed them, notice the speed at which he does so, and he breaks rhulads neck in the blink of an eye with no chance at all for rhulad. as for brys, im definitely sure he cannot be placed on a level with mok and silchas or rake and dassem. but i am glad that we now try to classify the fighters and not any more put them in a sure ranking, cause that leads to who'd-win discussions.

[Aptorian]

And we all know that Trull would kick Brys ass...

[Called-by-the-Voices]

Apt- As for Iron Bars, we know he's no match for Skinner, and we know that Skinner is slightly inferior to Dassem (therefor to Rake also) and while he was good vs the Thelomen Toblakai at the end of MT, we know that Silchas made short work of them..

So Dassem/Rake>Skinner>Iron Bars ----> the only question is where to put Ruin? His reputation, before we see him on screen, is fearsome, but he did pretty much nothing in RG. Dunno.. Help here

As for Brys, I admit maybe putting him in 1st class is too much. But here are my reasons. First: when that Queen's champion dude draws his sword halfway out, Brys is already beside him, with his sword drawn. Now that's speed.

Second, what he did to Rhulad was beyond uber. I'm not talking beating him, as Rhulad is no Dassem when it comes to swordplay. But both Trull and Fear were razzle-dazzled when they saw what he did to their brother.

Third, when the Edur are advancing to letheras, there's that scene where that Queens's champion dude dies and he hears the Edur talking something like "Wow that was that Brys fella, he IS a great swordsman" and then he thinks "You just wait to meet him, you're never gonna know what hit you" (I'm heavily paraphrasing as you can see)

[Seguleh 1st]

i admitt that brys is very fast but i do not think him a match for the real upper class even in speed. you have to remember that even the weakest of envys three seguleh was able to parry tool twice with his swords not even drawn, but halfway out. and for that, you must be incredibly fast. and this one had not even a number we know, i think

[Called-by-the-Voices]

Well, you can't blame me for trying. Before he gets in a real fight with someone from the upper class, I'm demoting Brys..

Sooooo Update!

1st clas- Insane/The BEst/Unbeatable
Dassem
Karsa
Rake
Icarium

2nd class- World Class, great swordsmen
Tool
Silchas
Mok
Skinner
Blues
Brys

2rd Class- The rest, still good but not even close to the 1st class
Iron Bars
WJ
Brukhalian
Rell

SUMMARY: 1st class: OUT: Brys Beddict, IN: Icarium
2nd class:OUT: Rell, IN: Brys Beddict
3rd class: OUT: Itkovian Othantalian, IN: Rell

[Apocalypse Now]

I don't know if he has been mentioned and I'm not going to read through the whole thread due to time issues, but I think Gruntle deserves a mention, at least when he's in his super-badass state. I'm pretty sure he used two swords.

Also, it's hard to know where to draw the line because if we are just sticking with swords, it would take away some of the best physical fighters in the malazan world, like I have a feeling Dancer in his prime could take out any of the 2nd tier and put up one hell of a fight with any of the first. He has small blades that really aren't swords though, so I guess my argument is moot.

[Onos]

Called-by-the-Voices, on Jan 18 2009, 09:43 AM, said:

Well, you can't blame me for trying. Before he gets in a real fight with someone from the upper class, I'm demoting Brys..

Sooooo Update!

1st clas- Insane/The BEst/Unbeatable
Dassem
Karsa
Rake
Icarium

2nd class- World Class, great swordsmen
Tool
Silchas
Mok
Skinner
Blues
Brys

2rd Class- The rest, still good but not even close to the 1st class
Iron Bars
WJ
Brukhalian
Rell

SUMMARY: 1st class: OUT: Brys Beddict, IN: Icarium
2nd class:OUT: Rell, IN: Brys Beddict
3rd class: OUT: Itkovian Othantalian, IN: Rell

Mentioning Karsa in the same breath as Dassem and Rake seems like blasphemy... there is clearly a split between them.

[Onos]

Seguleh 1st, on Jan 18 2009, 08:29 AM, said:

but i am glad that we now try to classify the fighters and not any more put them in a sure ranking, cause that leads to who'd-win discussions.

Well, my intent was never to use the rankings as an absolute value, just the best we can guess/estimate/prove. The group classification isnt really any better or in my opionion, worse since i would say there is little or no difference between the worst of one group and the best of the one below. Only now you can argue points for anyone in that group instead of just individuals. Say, well Skinner did this and this other guy did this, so as a conclusion Gruntle should be in the top tier etc... Opens up way more arguments that would have little value.

Perhaps consider my rankings as 17 groups of swordsmen, that just happen to only have 1 guy in them.

[Seguleh 1st]

thats good but how do we bring an order into those groups?

[Onos]

Seguleh 1st, on Jan 21 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

thats good but how do we bring an order into those groups?

Well, i would say with current information they are pretty darn accurate!! I have been tinkering with them as people have commented. But i could be viewed as biased.

[sacase]

I put Rake further down the list as far as skill goes.

As mentioned before Rake fights elder God for 3 days and wins

Rake visits Seguleh Island and has to leave by warren getting no further than 7 because he is so pressed. So Seguleh 1-6 are better.

[Aptorian]

sacase, on Feb 6 2009, 07:57 PM, said:

I put Rake further down the list as far as skill goes.

As mentioned before Rake fights elder God for 3 days and wins

Rake visits Seguleh Island and has to leave by warren getting no further than 7 because he is so pressed. So Seguleh 1-6 are better.

Grrrhh.

Rake, thought a score or more duels one after another, in a quick succesion against very lethal oponents, untill he finally had enough and left via warren. Envy said to slow his beating immortal heart or something like that. Said in another way, he was pressed to the point that he actually had to excert himself.

This is a long way away from fighting for his life.

Rake was able to control the fight against Dassem and mastermind the setting of the killing blow, that tells me all that I need to know of how good a swordsman Rake was.

[sacase]

Aptorian, on Feb 6 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

sacase, on Feb 6 2009, 07:57 PM, said:

I put Rake further down the list as far as skill goes.

As mentioned before Rake fights elder God for 3 days and wins

Rake visits Seguleh Island and has to leave by warren getting no further than 7 because he is so pressed. So Seguleh 1-6 are better.

Grrrhh.

Rake, thought a score or more duels one after another, in a quick succesion against very lethal oponents, untill he finally had enough and left via warren. Envy said to slow his beating immortal heart or something like that. Said in another way, he was pressed to the point that he actually had to excert himself.

This is a long way away from fighting for his life.

Rake was able to control the fight against Dassem and mastermind the setting of the killing blow, that tells me all that I need to know of how good a swordsman Rake was.

I just don't put Rake as high as most people as far as swordmanship goes. Now as far as pure power,yeah. Swordmanship, not so much.

If you have to leave to slow your heart, then I would argue that you are fighting for your life. Think about it. He fought an elder god for three days. Using your numbers he fought 20 duels in quick succesion. I am sure those duels didn't take 3 days. The Seguleh pressed him to a point that he had to leave. I would argue top 5 would be able to take him if it was just sword skill. But if it was a choice of dying or using magic to win, Rake would use everything at his disposal.

The fight with Dassem was a fight he could not afford to take any chances on. He had to ensure that he died on his own blade and not Dassem's. If I recall it was a blocked blow that drove his own sword into his head. He intentionally did this, its not as if he tricked Dassem into doing something special. (Then again I could be wrong since it has been a minute since I read the book)

Rake has never really impressed me with his sword skill as much as other such as Dassem, Brys, Mok and Tool. What makes these guys so good is that their power resides in their sword skill, not other abilities.

[Aptorian]

If you take a jogg down the street, or better yet, spend a few minutes swinging 20 pounds of steel around, I think your heart will be beating aswell.

[Grief]

Dassem was manipulated into killing rake, by rake. He did not want to.
This has been highly debated, so im not going to re-iterate all the ins and outs of it.

He fought an Elder God for 3 days.
That elder god was, almost undoubtedly better than the seguleh.
He fought 19 other seguleh and then the seventh, and still won.

Now you're arguing that, if he can fight for 3 days, why did the seguleh tire him.

The answer is simple.

BOTH him and draconus were fighting for 3 days. He tired, but so did draconus, keeping it even.

Fighting when tired against people who are fresh is entirely different.

Also, if he just wanted to kill the seguleh, he could easily enough blow them away with magic.

I suspect Rake could have carried on fighting. Except why. He was only there for curiosity.

Do you think he would think it worth putting hundreds of brave warriors into eternal enslavement in dragnipur, since they would just keep coming, just to sate his curiosity?

[sacase]

Aptorian, on Feb 6 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

If you take a jogg down the street, or better yet, spend a few minutes swinging 20 pounds of steel around, I think your heart will be beating aswell.

Of course, but we are talking about a being that fought an elder god for 3 days strait. So that is an indicator of his physical stamina if he can fight for three days strait. Hell, most people can't stay awake for three days strait much less fight.

[Grief]

You also have to consider, both him and draconus were possibly using magical means to boost stamina, or something like this. Both are ascendants, and have un-natural stamina.
Now, im not sure he would consider it fair to boost his stamina using magical means against mortals.
They had done nothing to deserve death, nor dragnipur.
Seeing that they wouldnt stop, he left. Or at least that is the impression.

You also have to remember this is Lady Envy.

1. She is not the most reliable, and is the kind who would lie just for the lolz.
2. She, in recent times, is not massively fond of rake, so wouldnt be against a bit of rumour-mongering.

[sacase]

Grief, on Feb 6 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

You also have to consider, both him and draconus were possibly using magical means to boost stamina, or something like this. Both are ascendants, and have un-natural stamina.
Now, im not sure he would consider it fair to boost his stamina using magical means against mortals.
They had done nothing to deserve death, nor dragnipur.
Seeing that they wouldnt stop, he left. Or at least that is the impression.

You also have to remember this is Lady Envy.

1. She is not the most reliable, and is the kind who would lie just for the lolz.
2. She, in recent times, is not massively fond of rake, so wouldnt be against a bit of rumour-mongering.

But Lady Envy's account is all we have to base Rake's time on Segulah Island on. We are making a lot of assumptions here, but I would argue that Rake, while an accomplished swordmen, is not the best one. Like I said based on pure power, yeah, he would smack all the seguleh around. But swordsmanship alone evens the playing field drasticly.