[blackzoid]

muco, on Jan 5 2009, 08:49 AM, said:

blackzoid, on Jan 5 2009, 01:24 AM, said:

As for the Karsa/Tool strength issue, I just remembered that when Tool first appears in GoTM that
Tool CRUSHS the leg of one of the Rhvi warriors that is chasing Lorn. Now I don't think Karsa has ever done anything like that. Has he?

Also when Toc tries to lift up Tool in MoI doesn't he ponder that Tool was the heaviest sack of bones that he ever...never mind.

Err...didn't Karsa and Derogath have a fist fight which ended with Karsa crushing it's skull?

Apart from killy, I can think of only a few ascendants that are capable of that kind of strength.

And why do people contrary to the proof in the books think that Karsa is slow with a sword. Except for Dassem and Rake and probably Iccy, doubt anyone is near Karsa's skill with the sword. Before we argue this...please quote something which says...

"even though Karsa has less skill with the sword, his strength won him the day" or quotes to that effect...and I will quote from the books which points to Karsa's skill with the sword.

And where does it say Karsa is eight feet tall? There was a quote that says he was half again taller than a human or something to that effect. Even Ubala was shorter than this guy.

Silchas Ruin could be one of the few who could take him as well. He did beat 4 full-blooded Thelomen Toblakai after all.
Each was probably not as individually strong as Karsa and their sword skill as described wasn't near his level, but the fact that Silchas took them apart so quickly does count for something. (I am counting the fact that Ubala did kill the 5th one, and its true that Iron Bars + the undead people did mess them up a bit as well)

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Seguleh 1st, on Jan 4 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

i do not grasp how people are able to misunderstand an intended meaning that perfectly. this was about who is the best swordfighter in SKILL. which turns your whole discussion into rubbish. why bother who is stronger? the point is, who has the best fighting style! and that puts WJ above karsa, because Karsa relies much on his strenght. i do not doubt that he is a formidable warrior, but he is not that impressive as a swordfighter.

Karsa beat a high ranking Seguleh with ease. He didn't use his superior strength because he didnt have to. He is a skillful enough fighter without it. Throw into that skill his great size and strength and it makes him an even more formidable warrior. Stop acting like strength wouldnt matter in a sword fight, because if two people were evenly matched in skill, but one of them was ten times stronger, the stronger one would win.

WJ sparring with Dassem doesnt mean anything. Of all those boxers who sparred with Tyson, how many went on to become heabyweight champs? none.

Karsa would DESTROY him.

[blackzoid]

The Tyrant Lizard, on Jan 5 2009, 11:38 AM, said:

Seguleh 1st, on Jan 4 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

i do not grasp how people are able to misunderstand an intended meaning that perfectly. this was about who is the best swordfighter in SKILL. which turns your whole discussion into rubbish. why bother who is stronger? the point is, who has the best fighting style! and that puts WJ above karsa, because Karsa relies much on his strenght. i do not doubt that he is a formidable warrior, but he is not that impressive as a swordfighter.

Karsa beat a high ranking Seguleh with ease. He didn't use his superior strength because he didnt have to. He is a skillful enough fighter without it. Throw into that skill his great size and strength and it makes him an even more formidable warrior. Stop acting like strength wouldnt matter in a sword fight, because if two people were evenly matched in skill, but one of them was ten times stronger, the stronger one would win.

WJ sparring with Dassem doesnt mean anything. Of all those boxers who sparred with Tyson, how many went on to become heabyweight champs? none.

Karsa would DESTROY him.

Didn't Karsa stamp the ground and the Segulah stumbled? And he used his reach and strength to pick her up.
And when Karsa's and her swords clashed together didn't her wrists break straight away?
That doesn't seem like a fight between 2 closely matched fighters along the lines of Rake-Dassem or Mok-Tool.
Karsa's strength was the main deciding point there. Not his skill level.

Mind you I do agree that Dassem taking a while to get past WJ's guard is too often used as proof that WJ is somehow an amazing
swordfighter. Karsa would easily take WJ.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

ha, I forgot about the ground stamp thing. You need to be pretty strong to do that right

[Aptorian]

Or heavy... Karsa's bodymass is dense.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I tried to think of a witty answer but I can't concentrate with Harry looking at me

[muco]

The Tyrant Lizard, on Jan 5 2009, 01:18 PM, said:

ha, I forgot about the ground stamp thing. You need to be pretty strong to do that right

Strong is a pretty mild word.

That was one of the improbbaly things Karsa does.

Can anyone imagine equivalent of what Karsa did there?? probably a herd of elephants sprinting.....

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Jan 5 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

Or heavy... Karsa's bodymass is dense.

Yep, Karsa is pretty dense alright.

[L'oric]

I have yet to read RoTCG, but I do so love lists of best this or that.

1. Dassem
2. Seguleh 2nd...is he still the knight of hood if hood is dead?
3. Mok
4. Tool
5. Karsa I have him here because I can not differentiate between Tool, Mok, the Seguleh 2nd or 1st. I guess he could be higher that Tool but...personality has to count for something.
6. Brys
7.-9 Whatever Crimson Guard is really good...Skinner, Iron Bars, Greymantle
10.Temper
11.Whiskeyjack

Where to put the Seguleh 1st? I have no clue but he has to be in there somewhere. The best thing I can say here is that everyone here can kill someone else on the list. I had to make the list go to 11 because without WJ no swordskill list is complete.

Sincerely,

[Hinter]

L'oric, on Jan 5 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Where to put the Seguleh 1st? I have no clue but he has to be in there somewhere.

Umm, one place above the 2nd? Just a thought

[L'oric]

Hinter, on Jan 6 2009, 04:27 AM, said:

L'oric, on Jan 5 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Where to put the Seguleh 1st? I have no clue but he has to be in there somewhere.

Umm, one place above the 2nd? Just a thought

You would think it's that easy! I for one have no clue because Mok might be good enough to challenge two and two might be good enough to challenge 1. We need a seguleh spin off book. But not a history of...some new storyline unless they will be involved in the next few volumes more and more.

[Onos]

I thought the quote was something like "When Dassem and WJ used to spar it usually took Dassem about 3 swings to beat WJs guard". The impression was WJ was the next best Malazan, and he did spar with Dassem, but they werent close. When you are as good as Dassem you dont have many practicing options... and perhaps he was doing it more for WJs benefit than his own.

I thought Karsa used his strenght to beat the 11th as well. That said i am starting to respect his speed more than i used to. i am confused on his buld. It seems he is quite strong, but i also think doesnt have a bulky build. I took him to be a strong tall person but nothing like a Mappo or an Urko in bulk.

[Grief]

Not 3 swings.
A good while, or somesuch, as I recall, is the wording, or "some time" or something.

[Seguleh 1st]

"He was a superb swordsman. He used to spar with Dassem Ultor and it'd take Dassem a while to get past his guard."
I think it was Dujek who said that.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

I think there's no way of naming 1 as the best swordsman, so I'll put them in classes

1st clas- Insane/The BEst/Unbeatable
Dassem
Karsa
Rake
Brys

2nd class- World Class, great swordsmen
Tool
Silchas
Mok
Skinner
Blues
Rell

2rd Class- The rest, still good but not even close to the 1st class
Iron Bars
WJ
Brukhalian
Itkovian

[Grief]

Iktovian is an interesting choice, but other than that, id pretyt much agree,
I would say that perhaps Mok should be considered one of the best mortal swordsman,a dn is quite possibly on a par with brys, though not quite rake/dassem.

[malaz master]

i think karsa should be higher, traveller was scared of meeting him when he heard about the bandits/ and he beet the crap out of the jhag without a sword,
did anyone think about redmask,
and trull managed to hold the jhag guy something like iracame i forget the spelling

[malaz master]

and also what about gruntle

[Called-by-the-Voices]

malaz master, on Jan 18 2009, 01:08 AM, said:

i think karsa should be higher, traveller was scared of meeting him when he heard about the bandits/ and he beet the crap out of the jhag without a sword,
did anyone think about redmask,
and trull managed to hold the jhag guy something like iracame i forget the spelling

malaz master, on Jan 18 2009, 01:19 AM, said:

and also what about gruntle

Trull is a spearman, I think we're discussing swordsmen here. As for Karsa, the consensus here (as I gathered) is that he's still a bit below both Dassem and Rake, probably in the Skinner/Blues category. He has a mighty will, and he is veery strong, but that doesn't neccesary make him the best swordsman. He is world-class, I'll give you that

I forgot about Gruntle, but we've seen too little evidence of him toasting the "big guns", so I think 3rd class is where I'd put him...

[Aptorian]

Just noticed you put Iron Bars in third tier of swordfighters. I don't know. Iron Bars is good. The scene where he tears Rhulads retinue to pieces seems to me shoved a guy who not only is deadly with the sword but can kill you in any way imaginable. I think he's second tier.

I also have a problem with you putting the untried Brys in the 1st tier but then leaving the likes of MoK and Ruin, probably also Rekk in the second tier. Ruin is probably Rakes equal in a fight. Mok is a challenger to the first, he tore Tool apart with no difficulty.