[Aptorian]

Karsa is only eight feet tall according to Erikson. But yeah, I don't see him as superhero strong, just having strength relative to his size and body composition.

And the T'lan Imass are magically enhanced killing machines. Their bodysize doesn't matter.

EDIT: ... I don't know why we're having this who'd win discussion

[Illuyankas]

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

Karsa is only eight feet tall according to Erikson. But yeah, I don't see him as superhero strong, just having strength relative to his size and body composition.

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

Caladan Brood is only seven feet tall according to Erikson. But yeah, I don't see him as superhero strong, just having strength relative to his size and body composition.

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

Anomander Rake is only seven feet tall according to Erikson. But yeah, I don't see him as superhero strong, just having strength relative to his size and body composition.

They're all ascendants, they're all crazy strong. Once you reach ascendancy your traditional body limits don't matter.

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

And the T'lan Imass are magically enhanced killing machines. Their bodysize doesn't matter.

Magically enhanced by the same Tellann warren Karsa trounced before he sheboinged that Jaghut, eh? So why didn't that T'lann Imass Karsa cut in half try to catch his sword before it cut her in half? Surely she'd be able to if she was stronger than him, right?

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

EDIT: ... I don't know why we're having this who'd win discussion

I DON'T KNOW EITHER

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

They're all ascendants, they're all crazy strong. Once you reach ascendancy your traditional body limits don't matter.

Meh. Double Meh. I don't think that's true in every case. Still doesn't matter because I think a T'lan Imass could be as strong as Karsa.

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

So why didn't that T'lann Imass Karsa cut in half try to catch his sword before it cut her in half? Surely she'd be able to if she was stronger than him, right?

Because the sword is sharp! Strength doesn't mean the blade wont cut you in two.

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

I DON'T KNOW EITHER

WHY ARE WE SHOUTING!!?

[Illuyankas]

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Meh. Double Meh. I don't think that's true in every case. Still doesn't matter because I think a T'lan Imass could be as strong as Karsa.

Fine. I think a warren powered skeleton just over half the height of an ascendant being that has been proven to be able to ignore the effects of that particular warren is weaker than said ascendant being.

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Because the sword is sharp! Strength doesn't mean the blade wont cut you in two.

It's a chunk of stone! It's got less edges than an opened tin can! Besides, since Imass are so hardcore now according to you they can stop the blade by clapping their hands together on each side of the sword Blade 2 style, then twist it out of Karsa's grip, flip it in the air, catch it, cut Karsa in two by using it one handed, then catch their sunglasses thrown to them by Kris Kristofferson, put them on in a really cool fashion then FLIP OUT AND KICK VAMPIRE ASS

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

WHY ARE WE SHOUTING!!?

BECAUSE WE'RE FLIPPING OUT AND KICKING VAMPIRE ASS NOW YEAHHHHHH

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Meh. Double Meh. I don't think that's true in every case. Still doesn't matter because I think a T'lan Imass could be as strong as Karsa.

Fine. I think a warren powered skeleton just over half the height of an ascendant being that has been proven to be able to ignore the effects of that particular warren is weaker than said ascendant being.

Triple Meh. This was originally a question whether Tool could take Karsa. I think he could match him in a fight, and even if he could not block karsa's heaviest swings full on, he has the skill to avoid or get around those.

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Because the sword is sharp! Strength doesn't mean the blade wont cut you in two.

It's a chunk of stone! It's got less edges than an opened tin can! Besides, since Imass are so hardcore now according to you they can stop the blade by clapping their hands together on each side of the sword Blade 2 style, then twist it out of Karsa's grip, flip it in the air, catch it, cut Karsa in two by using it one handed, then catch their sunglasses thrown to them by Kris Kristofferson, put them on in a really cool fashion then FLIP OUT AND KICK VAMPIRE ASS

It's made of flint, meaning it has a thousand sharp little edges.

And I'm going to pull the Mythbusters card and tell you that it's not possible to catch a blade in full swing

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

WHY ARE WE SHOUTING!!?

BECAUSE WE'RE FLIPPING OUT AND KICKING VAMPIRE ASS NOW YEAHHHHHH

OOHH VAMPIRES!!! I LOVE TWILLIGHT!!! *Cue Buffy soundtrack*

[Illuyankas]

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Meh. Double Meh. I don't think that's true in every case. Still doesn't matter because I think a T'lan Imass could be as strong as Karsa.

Fine. I think a warren powered skeleton just over half the height of an ascendant being that has been proven to be able to ignore the effects of that particular warren is weaker than said ascendant being.

Triple Meh. This was originally a question whether Tool could take Karsa. I think he could match him in a fight, and even if he could not block karsa's heaviest swings full on, he has the skill to avoid or get around those.

No it wasn't, it was whether WJ could parry Karsa as Mok could parry Tool. I said Karsa is stronger, you started arguing. Now, Tool might be able to take Karsa in a swordfight, dissolving into dust to go around a swordswing, only to reform to stab Karsa in the back of the head, but if Karsa can shatter his sword or repel the Tellann warren OH WAIT TOOL'S FLESH AGAIN HE'S BONED

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

Because the sword is sharp! Strength doesn't mean the blade wont cut you in two.

It's a chunk of stone! It's got less edges than an opened tin can! Besides, since Imass are so hardcore now according to you they can stop the blade by clapping their hands together on each side of the sword Blade 2 style, then twist it out of Karsa's grip, flip it in the air, catch it, cut Karsa in two by using it one handed, then catch their sunglasses thrown to them by Kris Kristofferson, put them on in a really cool fashion then FLIP OUT AND KICK VAMPIRE ASS

It's made of flint, meaning it has a thousand sharp little edges.

And I'm going to pull the Mythbusters card and tell you that it's not possible to catch a blade in full swing

I'm going to pull the 'magic powered skeleton' card by pointing out it's a magic powered skeleton. Your science is irrelevant. Also, I'd watch the 'Is Moon's Spawn waterproof?' episode all day. Myth, BUSTED

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jan 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

WHY ARE WE SHOUTING!!?

BECAUSE WE'RE FLIPPING OUT AND KICKING VAMPIRE ASS NOW YEAHHHHHH

OOHH VAMPIRES!!! I LOVE TWILLIGHT!!! *Cue Buffy soundtrack*

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FUCKING TWILIGHT CAN GO CLIMB A WALL OF DICKS

[Grief]

You seem to be arguing that having a nasty sword, and a bit of strength therefore means your sword destroys someone elses, every time you fight them.

But do we see Rake going about snapping peoples swords in half?

No, we dont see him going about snapping peoples swords in half, and he's got arguably the nastiest sword there is.

Stopping a warren depends on who's wielding the warren.

Ok. Karsa has proved resiliant to warrens. That doesn't mean he trounces them. That means he trounces the wielder.
Your argument is like saying: Because Karsa was not destroyed by some baby Jaghut shooting an icicle at him, he could therefore destroy Raest or Gothos, because he is greater than the warren of Omtose Phellack.

Think he'd been quite so resilient to getting blasted by say, Olar Ethil, K'rul, Draconus, Gothos, Osric, Rake, for example, or a bunch of others that come to mind. No.

Also, this isnt some person trying to kill him with Tellan. This is him versus the power of the rituals effects on the Imass. The same effects that allow them to break up into dust and survive. The same effects that make them immortal. The same effects that stop Hood claiming their souls. The ritual of a whole race. And tool is the greatest among them. He has the strength to wield a flint sword at the speed of the seguleh third. This is the seguleh that were left alone, because it wasn't worth it. But why not? You need ONE swordsperson rival to the first. Take that mask, prove your skill, and you rule. Yet they didnt risk it. They left them. What does that tell us? The seguleh have skill.

[Illuyankas]

Grief, on Jan 4 2009, 08:11 PM, said:

You seem to be arguing that having a nasty sword, and a bit of strength therefore means your sword destroys someone elses, every time you fight them.

But do we see Rake going about snapping peoples swords in half?

No, we dont see him going about snapping peoples swords in half, and he's got arguably the nastiest sword there is.

Rake's onpage swordfights are: The one with the Gulayn Lord, which I will give you since he appeared to have just an axe; Dassem when he was armed with Vengence, a nasty sword in the hands of someone strong; and, er, that's it. Also, Icarium versus anyone is a weapon-snapping machine. Wooden swords, metal swords, Imass stone swords, he breaks them all.

I'm not saying that they'll break their opponent's sword all the time, just that the less nasty their sword in comparison to yours, the more chance of it snapping like a twig.

Grief said:

Stopping a warren depends on who's wielding the warren.

Ok. Karsa has proved resiliant to warrens. That doesn't mean he trounces them. That means he trounces the wielder.
Your argument is like saying: Because Karsa was not destroyed by some baby Jaghut shooting an icicle at him, he could therefore destroy Raest or Gothos, because he is greater than the warren of Omtose Phellack.

Think he'd been quite so resilient to getting blasted by say, Olar Ethil, K'rul, Draconus, Gothos, Osric, Rake, for example, or a bunch of others that come to mind. No.

Karsa literally brushed aside a Tellan ritual made by the Logros Clan's Bonecasters to hold a Jaghut that killed thousands of them. I'm pretty sure he'd be able to take a blast like that from any of them, he's been made that awesome in the story.

Grief said:

Also, this isnt some person trying to kill him with Tellan. This is him versus the power of the rituals effects on the Imass. The same effects that allow them to break up into dust and survive. The same effects that make them immortal. The same effects that stop Hood claiming their souls. The ritual of a whole race. And tool is the greatest among them. He has the strength to wield a flint sword at the speed of the seguleh third. This is the seguleh that were left alone, because it wasn't worth it. But why not? You need ONE swordsperson rival to the first. Take that mask, prove your skill, and you rule. Yet they didnt risk it. They left them. What does that tell us? The seguleh have skill.

The same ritual that has left hundreds of thousands of them littered around the world in little bitty pieces by the same foes that Karsa's beaten up over the series.
So, how much heavier is Karsa's sword? We've seen Karsa fling it around at silly speeds too. And the taking over the Seguleh thing is a silly argument. Anyone with enough magical powers could take over the place. They haven't because it's too much bother to KEEP ruling them, let alone the whole Tyrant thing.

Anyway, the question is 'Is Tool physically stronger than Karsa?' Like, in an armwrestle. So, which of them could beat/rival Urko in an armwrestle?

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

Karsa literally brushed aside a Tellan ritual made by the Logros Clan's Bonecasters to hold a Jaghut that killed thousands of them. I'm pretty sure he'd be able to take a blast like that from any of them, he's been made that awesome in the story.

Pedantic bear say: Those wards are described as being ment to hold something in and being weak vs an outside enterferance. I also think they were actually powered by the Jaghuts own magic not tellan per say.

Illuyankas, on Jan 4 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

Anyway, the question is 'Is Tool physically stronger than Karsa?' Like, in an armwrestle. So, which of them could beat/rival Urko in an armwrestle?

Wolverine.

[Grief]

Beaten to it by apt.

Also, yes other T'lan have been killed by things Karsa may have killed.
But I am not arguing that every single T'lan is better. Just Tool.
And as far as I recall Karsa hasn't killed anything that has killed Tool yet.

And your argument that something karsa has killed has killed Imass is also silly.

1. We dont know the circumstances/numbers or whatever.
2. Karsa gets pretty owned by a FA. Does it therefore hold that anything that has ever killed one could kill Karsa?

Also, the ritual is old. Rituals weaken. As well as apts point.

My point about swords:

You mention Dassem with Vengeance. He does have onpage fights. I cant remember him snapping anyones sword either. In fact, I can't think of many instances of it, certainly not enough to say that a weaker person cant parry a stronger one, because there are far more instances of people parrying attacks than their swords snapping like twigs.

[Seguleh 1st]

i do not grasp how people are able to misunderstand an intended meaning that perfectly. this was about who is the best swordfighter in SKILL. which turns your whole discussion into rubbish. why bother who is stronger? the point is, who has the best fighting style! and that puts WJ above karsa, because Karsa relies much on his strenght. i do not doubt that he is a formidable warrior, but he is not that impressive as a swordfighter.

[Aptorian]

WJ used to exchange swordblows for sports with Dassem ten years earlier. That does not make him an amazing swordsman, that makes him good. Karsa outclassed Rhulad with ease, he tore through an entire army of Edur like they were cardboard cutouts. Ducking and weaving and cleaving with out being wounded by a sinle spear or sword.

There's no way in hell WJ would stand a chance against Karsa. He wouldn't need his strength, the speed alone would be sufficient.

WJ is so overrated

[Illuyankas]

@Grief: OK, so because Tool is the best Imass swordsman he's physically stronger than Karsa. Very well, that is your opinion, though you're wrong I disagree I cannot blame you for having it. Well, I can, but oh well.

While he might be capable of killing an FA now, those that can kill FAs ARE right up there in the Could-Kill-Karsa list.

On the shattering thing, it's a combination of strength and mass - Icarium's scary strength and speed as well as his awesome sword, Karsa's strength and the sheer weight of his sword. Besides, just to kill what started this silly smashing discussion, Whiskeyjack's sword isn't much, much more durable than an Imass sword, so it won't stand up to Karsa's sword, which HAS smashed through them. So, Whiskeyjack would just lose. However, as Seg 1st pointed out WJ probably has the edge on swordplay. Shame it wouldn't help, though.

@Apt: YAY AN AGREEMENT ON SOMETHING

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 04 January 2009 - 10:00 PM

[Aptorian]

God I would love an animated scene of Karsa going through a row of Edur with that sword. Damn you hollywood buy the movierights already!

[blackzoid]

As for the Karsa/Tool strength issue, I just remembered that when Tool first appears in GoTM that
Tool CRUSHS the leg of one of the Rhvi warriors that is chasing Lorn. Now I don't think Karsa has ever done anything like that. Has he?

Also when Toc tries to lift up Tool in MoI doesn't he ponder that Tool was the heaviest sack of bones that he ever...never mind.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 05 January 2009 - 12:25 AM

[BeLeG]

Imho if Dassem fought WJ with Vengeance the latter would lose in mere seconds

and i think that a flesh and blood Onos is not far from ascendancy

This post has been edited by BeLeG: 05 January 2009 - 01:32 AM

[muco]

blackzoid, on Jan 5 2009, 01:24 AM, said:

As for the Karsa/Tool strength issue, I just remembered that when Tool first appears in GoTM that
Tool CRUSHS the leg of one of the Rhvi warriors that is chasing Lorn. Now I don't think Karsa has ever done anything like that. Has he?

Also when Toc tries to lift up Tool in MoI doesn't he ponder that Tool was the heaviest sack of bones that he ever...never mind.

Err...didn't Karsa and Derogath have a fist fight which ended with Karsa crushing it's skull?

Apart from killy, I can think of only a few ascendants that are capable of that kind of strength.

And why do people contrary to the proof in the books think that Karsa is slow with a sword. Except for Dassem and Rake and probably Iccy, doubt anyone is near Karsa's skill with the sword. Before we argue this...please quote something which says...

"even though Karsa has less skill with the sword, his strength won him the day" or quotes to that effect...and I will quote from the books which points to Karsa's skill with the sword.

And where does it say Karsa is eight feet tall? There was a quote that says he was half again taller than a human or something to that effect. Even Ubala was shorter than this guy.

This post has been edited by muco: 05 January 2009 - 08:51 AM

[Aptorian]

blackzoid, on Jan 5 2009, 01:24 AM, said:

As for the Karsa/Tool strength issue, I just remembered that when Tool first appears in GoTM that
Tool CRUSHS the leg of one of the Rhvi warriors that is chasing Lorn. Now I don't think Karsa has ever done anything like that. Has he?

Silly example when Karsa can litterally break down a city wall with a charge or pummel a KCCM to death. I don't think human bones are a big problem for the guy

EDIT: Oh beaten to it by about 40 minutes. I should update more often

Erikson personally commented on Karsa's height after we kept sending in questions with the Q&A about the issue. Erikson said he was around 8 feet tall. There's also descriptions in the book like Karsa being a head taller than Icarium or something who is 7 feet tall.

Personally it annoys the hell out of me since some of the stuff, like knocking down that city gate in HoC just shouldn't be possible unless he was something like 4 meters tall or more.

[blackzoid]

Oh right, my bad.

[muco]

Aptorian, on Jan 5 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

blackzoid, on Jan 5 2009, 01:24 AM, said:

As for the Karsa/Tool strength issue, I just remembered that when Tool first appears in GoTM that
Tool CRUSHS the leg of one of the Rhvi warriors that is chasing Lorn. Now I don't think Karsa has ever done anything like that. Has he?

Silly example when Karsa can litterally break down a city wall with a charge or pummel a KCCM to death. I don't think human bones are a big problem for the guy

EDIT: Oh beaten to it by about 40 minutes. I should update more often

Erikson personally commented on Karsa's height after we kept sending in questions with the Q&A about the issue. Erikson said he was around 8 feet tall. There's also descriptions in the book like Karsa being a head taller than Icarium or something who is 7 feet tall.

Personally it annoys the hell out of me since some of the stuff, like knocking down that city gate in HoC just shouldn't be possible unless he was something like 4 meters tall or more.

hehe...yeah eight feel tall guy knocking down city gates is too much. But Karsa is described as "as broad as he is tall" ...just a lot of muscle I guess. Still..some of the things he does, are just improbable.

When I visualize Karsa, he reminds of Hulk. I guess both could have a similar build. :Surprise: