[Malaclypse]

Dancer, on Dec 11 2008, 09:49 AM, said:

BeLeG, on Dec 10 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

After TTH I believe that Dragnipur was a burden for Rake not an advantage.
Sure,any kind of injury with Dragnipur means death but by the end of TTH who could lift the damn weapon AND fight against Dassem Ultor(who had Vengeance)???

How do we know Dragnipur puts strain on the owner whilst they are using it in combat? There is nothing to prove this. The sword was created by Draconus he might have thought about instances of this nature, it's burdening weight may have exerted itself at different times. I'm honestly yet to be convinced by a lot of people's assumptions. We can all agree that Dragnipur and Rake were exceptional so by that token normal assumptions largely are defunct.

Like I say, there's no evidence to suggest that Dragnipur was weighing down Rake in battle, plus to me the difference between the blows being too fast to register and the blows being even faster than the blows that were too fast to register doesn't have much signifiance past the fact that one might lead to a victory where the other one does not which cannot be proved anyway. All I know in that battle Dassem was fast enough and strong enough to lance Dragnipur back into Rake's head. All I can say is that I wasn't surprised, or expecting otherwise, that Dassem would beat Rake at that point. I admit that circumstances and context shaped these expectations but they were there at the time, and surely that means something. One of my favourite quote from the whole book is probably:

P827 TtH HB said:

Perched in a niche close to the gate, Chillbais tracked the one known as Traveller. The demon was shaking uncontrollably. The bellowing of Hounds, the detonations of entire buildings, the arrival of the Son of Darkness and the slaying of a God - oh, any of these could have been sufficient cause for such quivering terror. Even that ruined moon thrusting skyward to the south. Alas, however, it was none of these that had eliticed the winged toad's present state of abject extremity.
No, the source was threading through the crowd at the gate, now passing beneath the arch. The one named Traveller. Oh, he held in so much of himself, a will of such breathtaking intensity that Chillbais imagined it could, if the man so desired, reach into the heavens, close about all those spinning pieces in the sky, and remake the entire moon.

Re-reading the battle again, I do get the slight feeling that Rake was holding too much back which gives slight credence to the Rake > Dassem argument, but I cannot truly say and we'll never know really. My feelings at the time were that Rake was fallable where Dassem was not and so it turned out to be.

EDIT: A question, how many sword fights do we see Rake in in the series? And how many do we see Traveller in? Don't you think we hold too much store in Rake's reputation rather than trusting to hard evidence? (e.g. we don't know how Rake beat Draconus exactly, it might not have been because of a superiority in duelling. I know citing everyone in Dragnipur as evidence is reasonable but it's not hard evidence as that could have been achieved through a melange of different methods.)

It's obvious that Rake intended to lose that fight. How we feel, individually, about the circumstances, is beside the point, to be honest. If he had wanted to kill Traveller it would have been a different sort of contest - HE WANTED TO DIE, IT WAS OBVIOUS

[Andirak]

Er, I did not misunderstand. I know Rake intended to die. Honestly.

The point I sought to make was this:
For the whole length of the fight Dassem did not manage to drive Rake back, not even a single step, despite the fact that Rake was heavily burdened. Doesn't that say anything about Dassem's limits? And Rake's abilities?

[Andirak]

Malaclypse, on Dec 11 2008, 07:02 PM, said:

Andirak, on Dec 11 2008, 02:32 PM, said:

How could he not, being the one who forged it in the first place? And if I remember well, he picked up Dragnipur because it was more suited to his nature, not that he could not fully wield Vengeance/Grief. This from Andarist, I believe. And I think it was more like a person with the right, singular will with V/G would be unstoppable. I will try to dig up the quote when I have time.

Edit:
Here:

Quote

...
The Power of Grief lies in the focused intent in its creation. The sword demands a singular will in its wielder. With such a will, it cannot be defeated.
HoC, pg 519.

Quote

Cutter: 'Who was its maker?'
Andarist: 'My brother.
...
Before he found one...more suited to his nature.'
HoC, pg 517

This

Quote

...
In his veins, nothing of the Son of Darkness's Draconian blood. And in his hands, a sword that its maker had judged insufficient, when compared to Dragnipur.
HoC, pg 525

is from Cutter, so I am not sure how much weight it should be given, but I believe it's accurate.

Oh for Christ's sake - Obviously, Anomander had become too cynical and world-weary to wield Grief/Vengeance to its full potential and so sought out a weapon more suited to his enlightened nature. He took on the duty of Dragnipur because it was a cause worthy of him. As some others have suggested, Rake broke Traveller with his strange act of suicide, leaving Traveller to be remade (or not) into the sort of weapon that will be needed in the end. Dassem is an ignorant and talented teenager next to Rake.

I would like some clarifications on the bit about Rake having become too cynical and world-weary to use V/G to its full potential. And how exactly is this 'an enlightened nature'?

[Malaclypse]

alright, let me make it plain:

Grief/Vengeance requires purity of vision, no doubts. Rake, having become an adult in the world stage, realized that it wasn't in any way simple enough to be communicable to the masses - his understanding of the situation, which, at its near-to penultimate point required his suicide. I thought this was obvious and understood by all serious Malazan fans - I know I had good fun running circles round the GRRM crowd with stuff like this - I expect better from you lot.

[Andirak]

A thought occurs to me here: I haven't read ICE's books. Is there more information in there about V/G? Because the way you present it, (as in purity of vision, instead of singular will) does indeed make sense. And that makes me wonder whether Dassem will ever be able to wield it fully, I am not sure his is a pure vision!

[BeLeG]

Ι have a question too

do u think we can be sure about Dassem's intentions during his fight with Rake?
Personaly I believe that his obsession blinded him.He didnt know that Hood was in Dragnipur,he just knew that Rake would stand in his way.So in his mind it was a mortal combat and he wanted to kill Rake.His madness took over.
But is this true beyond any doubt?
After the fight he tells Samar Dev that it wasnt his choice.Does he mean the fight or Rake's death?
Maybe he expected that Rake would defend against his last attack?
Did he suspect that Hood was in Dragnipur?Did he want Rake to kill him so he could end up in the same place with the god of death as some people seem to believe?

sorry for my bad english

This post has been edited by BeLeG: 12 December 2008 - 02:44 AM

[Dancer+]

Mal, you said my point was shite but wrote something almost indistinguishly similar in the post before.
It's good to hear everyone else's opinion, a stimulated discussion is good

EDIT: By the way I never meant he said something "on screen," I meant we can derive he said or implied something through some of what Andarist said (sorry for the confusion).

This post has been edited by Dancer: 12 December 2008 - 12:13 PM

[Grief]

P827 TtH HB said:

Perched in a niche close to the gate, Chillbais tracked the one known as Traveller. The demon was shaking uncontrollably. The bellowing of Hounds, the detonations of entire buildings, the arrival of the Son of Darkness and the slaying of a God - oh, any of these could have been sufficient cause for such quivering terror. Even that ruined moon thrusting skyward to the south. Alas, however, it was none of these that had eliticed the winged toad's present state of abject extremity.
No, the source was threading through the crowd at the gate, now passing beneath the arch. The one named Traveller. Oh, he held in so much of himself, a will of such breathtaking intensity that Chillbais imagined it could, if the man so desired, reach into the heavens, close about all those spinning pieces in the sky, and remake the entire moon.

This doesnt have anything to do with it.
Both Rake and Dassem could kill said demon without effort.
So who would you be more scared of, the one who you're tracking, potentially withing 10/20 metres of, who may get pissed at you following him, or the one who's miles away, and completely uninterested in you.

[Dancer+]

Grief, on Dec 12 2008, 02:47 PM, said:

P827 TtH HB said:

Perched in a niche close to the gate, Chillbais tracked the one known as Traveller. The demon was shaking uncontrollably. The bellowing of Hounds, the detonations of entire buildings, the arrival of the Son of Darkness and the slaying of a God - oh, any of these could have been sufficient cause for such quivering terror. Even that ruined moon thrusting skyward to the south. Alas, however, it was none of these that had eliticed the winged toad's present state of abject extremity.
No, the source was threading through the crowd at the gate, now passing beneath the arch. The one named Traveller. Oh, he held in so much of himself, a will of such breathtaking intensity that Chillbais imagined it could, if the man so desired, reach into the heavens, close about all those spinning pieces in the sky, and remake the entire moon.

This doesnt have anything to do with it.
Both Rake and Dassem could kill said demon without effort.
So who would you be more scared of, the one who you're tracking, potentially withing 10/20 metres of, who may get pissed at you following him, or the one who's miles away, and completely uninterested in you.

I'm sorry but if you think I was trying to argue this then you've got another think (grammatically correct apparently) coming. I was just using the quote as a means to show Traveller's will, the point is noone else generally gets this type of thought attention. Basically, his will is insane. I'm not trying to say Dassem is better than Rake because of this, in fact I've accepted that Rake is better than Dassem...there's no comparison as Rake is the ultimate one. The perfect son of Darkness, to think otherwise would be foolish and naive which is funny as to think so, normally, would be these things.

Just to point this out, Chillbais saw the arrival of the Son of Darkness (and the slaying of Hood). It sounds like he tracked both of them...so you're point is relatively defunct.

[muco]

My List of best swordsman would be

1. Rake/Dassem/Seguleh 1st
I don't think much seperates these three. Although Dassem won, its not necessary that he was the better swordsman. And although Rake let Dassem win, it is possible he didn't have any other way out.
And going by the relative skills of Seguleh fighters, 1st would be right up there with these two.

2. Mok/Karsa/Icarium
Mok is the 3rd..and was supposed to be getting 'better'. Think of what the Seguleh, who was not in top 20 did to Iron Bars and we really truly grasp the skill of these island fighters.
Well, Karsa is difficult to place and so I am using the Seguleh as the reference here. The ease with which he fought the 11th... unlike Iron Bars who was hurried and didn't have a clue, Karsa destroyed her. He was in awe of Rake and Dassem during their fight, and thats why I place Karsa below them. And for people who say its Karsa's strength that wins him the fights..part true but SE mentions time and again how fast and light footed Karsa is. Kalam an assasin couldn't even hear Karsa until captures him, Samar Dev in their first meeting thinks the person walking to her was a child. And I am yet to see anyone getting past Karsa's defence for all their quickness.
Don't really know where to place Icarium but the few fights he gets involved in, it is possible that he should be along with Dassem and Co...but I get the feeling its the other intangibles that win icarium his fights. But going by Karsa and Icarium's fight, I would safely say, he is right up there and probbaly better than Karsa with a sword. Just can't place him....
2nd is dead and kind of mad...and fights with a big lance!! Don't know where to place him

3. Bry's/Onos/Silchas
One might argue Bry's should be higher up but I am not sure if he should be even this high up. Did he do something special in his fight with Rhulad? Well...not really. That is how Seguleh fight if I am not wrong. The Seguleh who fought Iron Bars had the similar kind of style, Mok, Rell etc.. not something unique to Bry's. But heh..he is too mysterious and could very well be right up here.
Onos...well, his credentials back him up but he is just below Mok in my opinion.
Silchas..probably should be higher up but meh...I will put him here with what I have seen.


4. Kallor/Spinnock/WhiskeyJack/Skinner
Kallor can not be 'killed'. He was impaled, which would have killed any other instantly and he was not even bleeding. He is very good, probbaly should be 3rd tier. Just have not seen the skill displayed. Sure he kills a lot of people but does he do it with mad skillz with his sword?
Spinnock..refer Kallor Vs Spinnock fight
Whiskeyjack... refer Kallor/Spinnock fight
Skinner...interesting character. Where to place him!! Dassem just messed with this guy but I guess thas what Dassem does to every one he meets.

Lot of other interesting fighters..like Rell, meh..didn't the initiates in MOI display the same mad skillz against KCCM? Unless he is in to 5 or 10 among his people, what he did in RTOCG is something we expect even from initiates. Iron Bars, more of a brute. Greymane, probbaly should be on the list. Trull...did we ever see him use a sword?!

[Dragnipurake]

I am willing to bet anything that SE would have described the Iron Bars fight in a markedly different (and I feel, better) manner. There was no similarity between MT and ROTCG as far as Iron Bars is concerned (and Dassem in TTH and ROTCG etc etc).
So, basically, I don't think we can compare the two authors' characters in the same list.

It is very likely that Rake, Brys, Karsa etc would fight in a different way if/when written by ICE. Skinner, well, where does he stand?! In MT, Iron Bars is almost as good as Skinner (sounds like DU territory); in ROTCG, Skinner is a brute with a perfect armor and nothing more.

muco, on Dec 25 2008, 12:17 AM, said:

My List of best swordsman would be
.
.
.
Skinner...interesting character. Where to place him!! Dassem just messed with this guy but I guess thas what Dassem does to every one he meets.

Lot of other interesting fighters..like Rell, meh..didn't the initiates in MOI display the same mad skillz against KCCM? Unless he is in to 5 or 10 among his people, what he did in RTOCG is something we expect even from initiates. Iron Bars, more of a brute. Greymane, probbaly should be on the list. Trull...did we ever see him use a sword?!

[Grief]

Karsa really is over-rated as a swordsman. Onos, mok, silchas, skinner, brys, Icarium(in rage), all would kill him, with ease I expect.

[EDIT] Edited out quotes but mainly because I made a mistake originally.

This post has been edited by Dancer: 26 December 2008 - 09:28 PM

[Dancer+]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch young one.

Why do you suppose your statement to be true? Statements alone cannot convince anyone with sense. Did you see how easily Karsa took apart Rhulad (far easier than Iron Bars and Brys), what about the Deragoth? And the KNCR? I don't think any of those, apart from Icarium, could match Karsa's achievements in the same predicament. Karsa is rated highly because his abilities are criminally good, the only blips on his record are Calm and Dassem/Rake fighting - and even this only hints that he was shocked. Personally given previous events I rate Karsa above all of those you mention with only the absence of perhaps Silchas and Icarium but mainly the latter.

EDIT: Should I say that only Silchas and Icarium would stand a good chance of hoping to match him.

[Grief]

Karsa was aiming to kill, not what Brys did. What brys did was far more difficult than what Karsa did.
Karsa is strong, but thats certainly different from being skillful swordswise.
Hounds aren't the same as fighting a skillful swordsman in any respect. See how easily Rake takes down the hounds in GoTM for instance.
KCNR? Well, the K'chain in MoI get pretty taken down by the Imass. And Tool is the best of them. And Mok beats him.

Most of the examples you use are invalid, as they show nothing of skill.

And we're talking about most skillful. Karsa, well, a lot of what he does is based on strength, not skill.
What Brys does to Rhulad takes more skill than what Karsa does.

Onos is Imass. They're hard to kill. Not only that, but with his skill? He takes on the seguleh 3rd two swords to one. We've seen how awesome the lower seguleh are. We know mok is certainly one of the best swordsmen out there, and he's 3rd best of them, getting close to as good as the 1st.

We know he's not as good as Rake/Dassem. Rake rates the seguleh highly.

Im pretty sure Karsa would be killed by Mok and Onos. They're just too fast for him, and more skillful. He has power but not the incredible skill of some of the others. Icarium, in rage, would match him easily with power, and be more skillful.

Skinner is at one point close to how dassem used to be.

Karsa is shaken by how good Rake/Dassem are.

The seguleh tire rake(admittedly he fights a lot of them) and Mok is the third.

Consider some of the achievements of the others. Then ask yourself if what we have seen suggests Karsa could do them.

Could he sever all of Rhulads tendons, without killing him? No.
Could he hold of Dassem long enough to escape? No.
Could he rise to the position of Seguleh 3rd? Unlikely.
Could he be rated as the best Warrior/Imass. I doubt it.
Could he fight off Mok for some time with 1 sowrd vs two. Also unlikely.

[Dancer+]

Just before I start, I'll say that I'm arguing about who would kill who with a sword. I'm not arbitrarily rating skill exempting physical might, as physical build/structure has a lot to do with reality.

Grief, on Dec 26 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

Karsa was aiming to kill, not what Brys did. What brys did was far more difficult than what Karsa did.
Karsa is strong, but thats certainly different from being skillful swordswise.

Karsa tired Rhulad completely out, blocking his best attempts to break his guard persistently. This was not an attempt to kill Rhulad. It is heavily implied that Karsa could have offed Rhulad immediately. Similarly I could say that Brys did not do this etc. etc. to support Karsa but it's beside the point so I won't.

Quote

Hounds aren't the same as fighting a skillful swordsman in any respect. See how easily Rake takes down the hounds in GoTM for instance.

Rake is the best, the epitome of power. He had Dragnipur. There are few similarities between usual duels and duels involving Dragnipur so what you're saying is invalid to say the least or at least the reasoning behind this is. If you want to further this point make reference to other hound battles and explain why they are not similar, I don't doubt they are not similar. Hounds do not use extension weapons like swords, they have inbuilt weapons like KCNR/KCCM etc.

Quote

KCNR? Well, the K'chain in MoI get pretty taken down by the Imass. And Tool is the best of them. And Mok beats him.

The KCCM are different and inferior to the KCNR, the short-tails. Again, your reasoning is not sound because of this reason.

Quote

Most of the examples you use are invalid, as they show nothing of skill.

As I said I'm not referencing skill as such, I'm referencing killing power which was derived from your first comment: "Karsa really is over-rated as a swordsman. Onos, mok, silchas, skinner, brys, Icarium(in rage), all would kill him, with ease I expect."

If we want to talk about skill then we can but you're talking about killing which is entirely different to being more skillful than someone else.

Quote

And we're talking about most skillful. Karsa, well, a lot of what he does is based on strength, not skill.
What Brys does to Rhulad takes more skill than what Karsa does.

Not necessarily, Karsa has had no reason to attempt what Brys did. No reason at all. Plus their corresponding weapons have different qualities which heavily influence the capabilities of what they do. Would you want to make small incisions with a sharp thin blade or a heavy thick flint bastard sword? I'll let you make your mind up.

Quote

Onos is Imass. They're hard to kill. Not only that, but with his skill? He takes on the seguleh 3rd two swords to one. We've seen how awesome the lower seguleh are. We know mok is certainly one of the best swordsmen out there, and he's 3rd best of them, getting close to as good as the 1st.

I relatively agree with this but I'll just mention that Tool chose his weapon of choice. It's his responsibility to wield his best choice of weapons. The other point I may mention is that someone with two swords won't always win against someone with one, this is because they have less control over each weapon and if they are disarmed, which can happen, then they are now at a disadvantage. But generally yes Onos is very good.

Quote

We know he's not as good as Rake/Dassem. Rake rates the seguleh highly.

And? Rake may rate Karsa very highly which is besides the point but your point holds little weight. You are also making inferences and putting things in people's mouths (unless I'm mistaken which could be possible)

Quote

Im pretty sure Karsa would be killed by Mok and Onos. They're just too fast for him, and more skillful. He has power but not the incredible skill of some of the others. Icarium, in rage, would match him easily with power, and be more skillful.

We don't know about the latter. And the former statements have little basis in fact, Karsa easily outplayed the 11th with speed, intelligence and power - you cannot make inferences when we haven't seen Karsa weak in a certain area. He matched the speed and power of two deragoth, the hounds move fast! As do the KCNR. Your statements are just statements again - they do not have reasoning behind them, at least not concrete reasoning.

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Skinner is at one point close to how dassem used to be.

Inconclusive, Skinner was the only Avowed to escape from Dassem. In RotCG he is being completely outplayed. It does not mean he was close, merely that he managed to escape - there's quite a big distinction.

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Karsa is shaken by how good Rake/Dassem are.

True, we're not contesting that Karsa is better than them and I think it's more a complement to their separate powers.

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The seguleh tire rake(admittedly he fights a lot of them) and Mok is the third.

Rake fights through a lot of them like you say, I know you're trying to amass evidence but this is relatively weak. Rake allegedly fought duel after duel after duel until he got upto the seventh and then he grew tired and retired to his warren.

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Consider some of the achievements of the others. Then ask yourself if what we have seen suggests Karsa could do them.

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Could he sever all of Rhulads tendons, without killing him? No.

There's been nothing to suggest he couldn't but mark my two points earlier about him having no reason and not having a weapon which is designed to engineer such precision. His weapons job is to KILL someone, not to surgically cut them apart. Karsa's weapons is "unbreakable", heavy and extremely long.

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Could he hold of Dassem long enough to escape? No.

I'm laughing now, we know nothing of how Skinner got away from Dassem in the first place. Do you remember the Crimson Guard? I'm sure they could have given Skinner that bit of an advantage needed to get away, that in itself is enough of a point to render this extremely tenuous if not defunct.

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Could he rise to the position of Seguleh 3rd? Unlikely.

Well he beat the 11th with consummate ease so...plus we have little evidence that he couldn't. The real question is could he beat Mok which is what you're trying to use as both your conclusion and reasoning, the answer is you haven't been able to convince me yet.

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Could he be rated as the best Warrior/Imass. I doubt it.

I wouldn't think so, he's not an Imass! You doubt it but reasoning doesn't necessarily support your doubts.

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Could he fight off Mok for some time with 1 sowrd vs two. Also unlikely.

He wouldn't need two swords as his weapon is probably his ideal weapon. The real question is could Mok get inside of Karsa's guard with two five foot swords against a eleven-foot sword, who knows.

I'm sorry but can you not grasp that perhaps everyone doesn't overrate Karsa but that you're trying to deliberately ignore evidence to underrate him to run against the general consensus. I like to think I argue with logic and consider all evidence, I don't think you're reaching sound conclusions.

[Solar]

Karsa is the kind of warrior who would do well against the Seguleh. He can block their attacks quite easily - their swords are not defeating his guard easily, whilst they would be unable to block his strikes; they are only mortal and it is likely their wrists would break in the attempt. Karsa isn't exactly slow either. The way he defeated Rhulad would likely work on many Seguleh.

[muco]

Why do a lot of people think Karsa is slow with his sword?

Is it because his sword is huge?

Did anyone read his fight with Seguleh 11th?

Oh yeah..Karsa was shaken by Dassem & Rake's fight. And yeah, Dassem was fearful of Karsa too if I remember. How many people in Malazan world can claim that!

Karsa is no brute, not in the classical sense atleast...SE tells us this point over and over in his books.

[Silencer]

I think it's more that Dassem had respect for Karsa. Sure, Dassem was afraid before he met him, but he was still willing to fight Karsa if he had taken Rhulad's sword!

[HoosierDaddy]

Okay 3 lists:

Non-ascendant, non old people:

1. Mok
2. Brys
3. Karsa
4. Rell
5. Whiskeyjack

Non-ascendant, old people:

1. Tool
2. Skinner
3. Greymane
4. Kallor
5. Spinnock

Ascendants:

1. Rake
2. Dessembrae
3. Icarium
4. Liossercal
5. Silchas Ruin

Attempting to group them together is unfair. Ascendant's have millenia of refinement and enhanced physical prowess, and the super-old have millenia of refinement to their skills.

[Silencer]

The question is where to draw the ascendant line.

For example, your list of ascendants has only definite ascendants. But Karsa has been referred to as an ascendant, Greymane and Skinner could very well be too, and considering all the Elder Gods have escaped their curses, isn't it possible Kallor has as well? And Spinnock, well, given one definition of ascendancy is experience, I would say he's been through enough to have crossed the line. Once again, the vague nature of ascendancy is a problem here.

Besides, part of the thing with Malaz is that even Gods can be killed by mortals.

That having been said, I tend to agree with your list (or at least like it, which Dancer has pointed out is not necessarily the best basis for this thread )