[Grief]

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

Lisheo Iccy said that maybe Traveler could beat him

Remember he doesn't know about his capabilities when he's enraged though.

[BeLeG]

Grief you're right
but please remember Veed's words

"good enough to awaken you?"

so Icarium knows that he is stronger when he is enraged.He probably doesnt know that he can destroy a continent but even so....

[Grief]

Isn't that after Veed reminds him of stuff and brings to surface some of his memories?

[Aptorian]

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

Trull and Fear are equal,at least thats what they believe,right?Trull has done some impressive things with his spear.You asked me if I think that Brys can take out Icarium.Well if a mortal Trull can hold him for a while then imho an ascended Brys can beat him(IMHO)

There's so many things wrong with this logic.

First, Trull and Fear had never fought Rhulad, but they feared him. He had become the champion of the Edur, a monstrous freak they feared more than the Letherii. Then Brys comes along and chops Rhulad down with something you could easily describe as ease. Of course they're disbelieving.

Second, Trull is a humble fellow who never thought much of himself. In between the events of MT and RG however he has a hell of an adventure and he becomes the Knight of Shadow. Trull most likely never ascends, it's not even certain that the Knight position, lends him anything, but the fact of he matter is that Trull demonstrates against waves of Edur on Drift Avalii, Iccy, Clip and even Ruin that he is an amazing talent with the spear. Now this talent didn't just pop out of nowhere, he developed it over decades fighting for the Edur in their civil wars and he had to stretch himself to survive against Iccy and Ruin. But had you seen what he was capable off, before reading the ending of MT, wouldn't you think of his impression of Brys as being foolish? His assessement of Brys taking down of Rhulad comes from his disbelief of what Brys just did, it doesn't tell you that Brys is better than Trull.

Trull and Quick couldn't hold Iccy. Tay probably wouldn't have. Cotillion suspected he would lose to if he had to step into the cave, and you think that an ascended Brys could beat him? Nonsense. Brys would get the same treatment that Trull got. Trull's spear only survived so long because he was deflecting blows, if Brys tried to guard himself with the sword it would explode in a billion little pieces, just like the T'lan Sword, then Icarium would turn him into pink mist.

And finally, I'm not even sure Brys ascended. Is it stated anywhere? He was brought back from the dead, but that doesn't automatically mean ascendancy. Paran didn't ascend in GotM.

[Toc]

Lisheo, on Feb 16 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

Ok, look, fantasy books, gents, anything can happen. Cool down, Brys cannot be compared to Rake or Dassem, it's a fact. He probably is the best mortal swordsman, but not the very best, not by a long shot.
Anyway, let's not let this get out of hand, I don't want to have to close the thread, so take a few deep breaths and relax.

I agree with you, but before the namechange of the thread it wasn't really about "who's the overall best character with a sword", it was about which character had the most skill with a sword. And yes, everyone looks at the word skill differently, no argue there.

I've never stated Brys as the best overall swordsman there is, but based on what we've read he's the most skillful out there so far. Sure you can state that others can do what Brys did, but there's no proof whatsoever to support it.

But anyways, now that the subject of this thread has changed, I think the best overall swordsman was Rake, but since he's gone I don't think there's anyone introduced who could beat Dassem in a fair fight.

This post has been edited by Toc: 16 February 2009 - 03:27 PM

[Tapper]

Grief, on Feb 16 2009, 04:01 PM, said:

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

Yes I do believe that Brys is one of the best we ve seen so far
It seems there are many people who think that what Brys did was not impressive.They think that it is not a feat able to earn him a place among the best....I disagree

Oh, he's certainly good.
But I wouldn't put him up with the top. Not with Rake, Dassem, Icarium(though im undecided about him)Tool(who, imo, gets under-rated), and possibly Graymane.

Living Tool is a real unknown... how much will he be slowed by the weight of his sword, and has he gained any speed because he's alive now? Also, what happened to his warren since he abdicated the position of First? (Still think it works).

Icarium is a force of nature - when enraged, I think few could stand against him.

For me, it's Rake, Dassem, Osserc, Icarium, Mok (I think he has surpassed the 1st) and Karsa as the main contenders - Mok only being there on account of how awesome Rell was and what a tough time IB had against an Agathii - where not-numbered Seguleh, one a 14 year old, dismembered a K'ell Hunter.

then there's the ones that knew defeat...

Skinner got beaten by Dassem, weakened or not weakened T'lan Tool by Mok.
Greymane got his ass kicked by Skinner, but didn't use 'The Sword'.
Brys was awesome, performing surgery with a longsword, but that was against a Rhulad who had died only a few times - Karsa stood against Rhulad who had faced many, many champions and had died 7 times against a single one... and didn't get hurt until the end.

Finally, Draconus lost to Rake, but that's hardly a shame, and he wouldn't have created an all devouring sword if he didn't think he could wield it with consumate skill.

[Lisheo]

Well, while I descend here in moments of dullness for a little bit of banter, you can't ever say who's the best swordsman, because a lot of the clashes are off-screen or not described in blow-by-blow detail. So I find this thread to be a little bit silly, at the best of times.
Besides.

Iccy FTW

[Tapper]

Lisheo, on Feb 16 2009, 04:27 PM, said:

Well, while I descend here in moments of dullness for a little bit of banter, you can't ever say who's the best swordsman, because a lot of the clashes are off-screen or not described in blow-by-blow detail. So I find this thread to be a little bit silly, at the best of times.
Besides.

Iccy FTW

Aye, it is silly, and people stumble all the time. But theorycraft ftw

[Grief]

Rake would pwn Iccy
Pusts mule is the seguleh first, and would also pwn Iccy.

[BeLeG]

Aptorian I'm sorry but you assume too much
You assume that Trull got really better after the Edur wars,you assume that he didnt know his own skill though he was FAR older than Brys,you assume that Fear and Trull did not know that they could take out Rhulad in a duel.
Fear and Trull generally accept that they are equals:Fact.
Fear knows he has no chance against Brys:Fact.
I can safely say that during MT Trull was no match for Brys.It is my belief that even during RG Trull was no match for Brys but I wont argue about it.

Brys shows a solution against Rhulad that they did not think of before.They react to his skill with shock:fact.
Brys's reaction to Trull's words shows that his feat was not a matter of luck.He knew he could pull this off
Brys could destroy Rhulad after hundreds of deaths:well at least two Edur eye-witnesses believed that he could.
I can't prove that he is the best.I just think he should be considered among the best.
I dont think that we have seen any mortal swordsman do things like Mok or Brys before


Now,Grief asked if Icarium would lose to Brys.I dont really know but if he could lose to Dassem then maybe he would lose against an ascended Brys(letherii stell is considered unbreakable but it is not tested against Iccy).It's an assumption.I accept that it is clearly an assumption,I never said it is a fact.

once again sorry for my bad english,I hope you get the meaning

This post has been edited by BeLeG: 16 February 2009 - 04:48 PM

[Aptorian]

It's obvious you and I aren't going to agree on this subject but the debate is funny

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

You assume that Trull got really better after the Edur wars,you assume that he didnt know his own skill though he was FAR older than Brys,you assume that Fear and Trull did not know that they could take out Rhulad in a duel.

I'm sorry I didn't do a good job of that part, let me rephrase. My point was that Trull was already a great fighter before he went on his adventures. He obviously was a great fighter, just check out the running battle with the Jheck (maybe my favorite fighting scenes of the whole series). It is also likely that he is much older than Brys all though we don't really understand the Edur society. His talk with Onrack in HoC suggests that the Edur are very long lived. I'm not saying Trull is hundreds or thousands of years old, I'm just saying that Trull was probably younger during the civil wars before the Warlock King unified the clans and he got a lot of experience back then counting coop. Actually this is a lot like Karsa Orlong and how the Teblor played war amongst each other.

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

Fear and Trull generally accept that they are equals:Fact.

I can hardly remember their exchange in the woods, but I remember the confrontation revealing something like Trull thinking that Fear is his equal or better, while Fear knows Trull is his better. Fear is the weaponmaster of the village and he's had plenty of time to gauge his brothers skill.

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

Fear knows he has no chance against Brys:Fact.

Nobody would doubt that one.

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

I can safely say that during MT Trull was no match for Brys.It is my belief that even during RG Trull was no match for Brys but I wont argue about it.

Good lord.

The only fighting we've seen was Brys vs the seaguardian and Rhulad. The Seaguardian was antiquatted and Rhulad was only beginning to grow in strength then. On the other hand we've seen Trull stand up to Icarium and Ruin, the highest tier of asskickery and he nearly defeated Ruin. We've also seen Trull fight scores of Jheck with one arm in a sling, holding back waves of Edur on Drift Avalii and kicking Clips ass. There's tons of evidence of Trulls amazing skill on the other hand you have Brys operating on a defenseless man and beating up a forgotten seacreature.

Bryss is good, but we've not seen him prove himself in the big league.

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

Brys shows a solution against Rhulad that they did not think of before.They react to his skill with shock:fact.

Yeah, they're amazed by his skill, but being amazed is not the same as being worse. Like I wrote above, they'd just seen a human champion take down their immortal unbeatable emperor, of course they were in shock.

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

Brys's reaction to Trull's words shows that his feat was not a matter of luck.He knew he could pull this off

Confidence is not necisarrily a great indication of skill. Korbolo Dom thinks he's the Malazan Empires greatest warrior and general.

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

Brys could destroy Rhulad after hundreds of deaths:well at least two Edur eye-witnesses believed that he could.

Rhulad had died four times before he fought Brys. He never showed any great build up of skill or strength. Iron Bars took him apart like he was nothing. To be honest even after his hundred deaths and fight with Karsa, he seemed pathetic... such a disappointment.

Beating Rhulad does not make Brys greater than any other swordfighter... except Rhulad

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

I can't prove that he is the best.I just think he should be considered among the best.
I dont think that we have seen any mortal swordsman do things like Mok or Brys before

I agree he is among the best, but not the best... and he's not better than Trull. There's a trull vs Brys thread by the way.

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

once again sorry for my bad english,I hope you get the meaning

Your english is no worse than mine

[Grief]

Another thing, it was all or nothing for Brys, not the same as knowing he could pull it off. He knew he had to, which would make him appear confident.

[BeLeG]

I dont remember Fear thinking that he is worse than his brother.I could be wrong but the impression I got after MT was that the two Sengar brothers were equals.
So when Fear is certain that he doesnt stand a chance against Brys I can safely assume that the same thing goes for Trull.

About the Korbolo Dom comparisson-Brys is modest but Dom is not.Confidence from a modest man counts for something dont you agree?

"Brys could destroy Rhulad after hundreds of deaths:well at least two Edur eye-witnesses believed that he could."
many seem to think that Brys was able to destroy Rhulad just because the latter had died a handfull of times



And I disagree with your explanation regarding Fear's and Trull's shock.Imho they were also shocked because of his skill.Fear's thoughts when he leaves the Eternal Domicile prove this to me.

Anyway,I agree that we have not seen Brys going against the top-dogs.Yet
Aptorian you said "I agree he is among the best, but not the best... " and I dont think you re wrong.My problem was all those people who seem to think that Brys hasnt shown great skill.The Guardian and Rhulad are not the fiercest opponents but they are better than most Edur or Letherii soldiers out there(remember the Trull "killed a lot of Edur" argument?)
I believe that we have enough evidence from MT to put Brys among the best- not as an equal to Rake and Dassem but you know what I mean.
I really think he has the greatest potential in him(remember the way his mind works?)

This post has been edited by BeLeG: 16 February 2009 - 05:55 PM

[blackzoid]

"Rhulad had died four times before he fought Brys. He never showed any great build up of skill or strength. Iron Bars took him apart like he was nothing. To be honest even after his hundred deaths and fight with Karsa, he seemed pathetic... such a disappointment.

Beating Rhulad does not make Brys greater than any other swordfighter... except Rhulad"

Exactly.
Karsa fans take note!
Sorry, couldn't resist.

BeLeg, I admire your dedication to going against the crowd favourites but at most Brys is an unknown quantity. We simply don't have enough feats to judge him yet.

[L'oric]

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 09:42 AM, said:

Fear and Trull generally accept that they are equals:Fact.

I always thought that Fear and Trull thought of themselves as equal with a sword. I remember (maybe incorrectly) that Trull knows he is better with a spear. Being as Trull held off Icarium and Ruin with a spear we really have no idea how good Trull was with a sword in his hands, and that means we really have no idea of how good Fear was.

If the Tiste Edur, are like the Tiste Andii, and the Tiste Liosan we know they all suffer from self aggrandizement that proves to be seriously lacking. The "second best" assassin mage of the andii is easily handled by Blues the second best Avowed of the crimson guard. The Liosian are humbled over and over again from HOC to RotCG. In my mind Fear and Trull were just not as good as they thought themselves, but Trull was as good as he thought and actually better when it came to the spear.

So when the two Edur are amazed by Brys I give it the weight I feel it deserves. Some but not total. Brys is good/great. As good as Blues and Skinner probably/maybe. Lets hope they fight and the authors can tell us themselves.

Sort of like one of the last David Gemmell books that had all his characters brought up from the dead to fight together and or each other.

Sincerely

[Benji]

Yikes. Four pages of posts in just one day. I'm not even going to TRY and crawl through all that. Instead I will pick up on one of the posts I glimpsed and say this:

liek omg!!1 karsa ftw!!1 karsa cud liek totalie pwn neone lol!!!1112one

Mod edit for translation, for those who can't understand a word Benji just said:

Golly. Karsa is pretty handy with a sword. In fact, I believe he could defeat anyone. Wow.

[Grief]

Oh stop being such a fanboy.
Oh, and Rake, Dassem, Graymane, Icarium, and Tool would all beat him

[BeLeG]

L'oric when it comes to the Tiste Andii please keep in mind that there are only several thousand of them with Rake, but there are millions of humans in Wu.So I believe that the best of the whole Andii race are probably just as strong as the strongest of humans

[Benji]

Well, normally I would quit now, but to be honest, I'm having fun emulating the fanboys...

Grief, on Feb 16 2009, 08:09 PM, said:

Oh stop being such a fanboy.
Oh, and Rake, Dassem, Graymane, Icarium, and Tool would all beat him

omg no!11 u trol!1 get of mi bords!1 kasra is teh pwn!!1

Again, translation:

I do believe you are incorrect. You silly person. Please leave. Karsa is rather impressive.

This post has been edited by Grief: 16 February 2009 - 10:56 PM

[Grief]

No!
Karsa couldn't even follow Rakes fight, silly!