[Grief]

Not sure Dassem could take icarium, but im pretty sure Rake is.
You cant base an argument on a characters modesty. Hell, rake is modest enough, as is Dassem.

Also, im not sure enraged iccy would actually help. I can see him getting Rhuladed-esque pwned if he gets like that.

Also, i wouldnt say Icarium is the most modest in the series.

Also, im not saying they would take him down quickly.

Rake fought 3 days with an elder god. I just dont think Icarium could sustain his rage for that long, presuming he got that far.

Also, im sure its mentioned that Icarium failed to kill the azath. Hurt yes. Killed no.
He got stopped. In fact, i may be wrong, but i have a feeling I read somewhere it was partly Gothos' doing that stopped him.

Rakes comment on Osric was to Killy or someone, when chasing Mael. That was a different time, and a comment about Osrics stupidity.
There are a few instances of Rake being given the impression to have defeated Osric.

[Lisheo]

Grief, on Dec 4 2008, 11:58 PM, said:

Not sure Dassem could take icarium, but im pretty sure Rake is.
You cant base an argument on a characters modesty. Hell, rake is modest enough, as is Dassem.

Also, im not sure enraged iccy would actually help. I can see him getting Rhuladed-esque pwned if he gets like that.

Also, i wouldnt say Icarium is the most modest in the series.

Also, im not saying they would take him down quickly.

Rake fought 3 days with an elder god. I just dont think Icarium could sustain his rage for that long, presuming he got that far.

Also, im sure its mentioned that Icarium failed to kill the azath. Hurt yes. Killed no.
He got stopped. In fact, i may be wrong, but i have a feeling I read somewhere it was partly Gothos' doing that stopped him.

Rakes comment on Osric was to Killy or someone, when chasing Mael. That was a different time, and a comment about Osrics stupidity.
There are a few instances of Rake being given the impression to have defeated Osric.

I believe Taralack Veed says it took Iccy something like seven days of rage to empty the ancient city of life in tBH.

Enraged Iccy would have gotten Rhulad-esque pwned by at least one of the T'lan, or Trull, let's face it.

Well, iccy doesn't know his own skills Dassem is NOT modest. He just doesn't brag. Same goes for Rake. Iccy actually puts himself down. Although I suppose you could argue thats self-worth issues not modesty lols.

[Grief]

Yes, but thats something he's really angry at.
For example, could he stay angry for so long at Rake or Dassem? Would they do something to so enrage him?

T'lan arent all they're hyped up to be. They're hard to kill, but on skill, not massively high.
Trull was defending, and he himself thinks he couldnt do anything close to Rhulhad-esqueness when he sees what Brys does.

[Grief]

Also, Iccy is mentioned as being able to sweep like fire. Ok. If opposed by normal people, its likely possible.
But we get the impression this has happened in the past.
Therefore, what stopped him then?
People like Rake, Osric, Draconus etc.

[Lisheo]

Grief, on Dec 5 2008, 12:09 AM, said:

Also, Iccy is mentioned as being able to sweep like fire. Ok. If opposed by normal people, its likely possible.
But we get the impression this has happened in the past.
Therefore, what stopped him then?
People like Rake, Osric, Draconus etc.

Well, his companions, the Nameless Ones,, the FA, the TTT and the T'lan Imass, I would guess, from what we know of his exploits.

[Grief]

We know he rips through Imass easily.
The namesless ones? When he's enraged? Well, if mappo can, im pretty sure Osserc is capable, same goes for the other races.

[BeLeG]

In MT Osric admits he just lost a fight against Rake but the Son of Darkness chose not to kill him

I don't think Karsa understands what an enraged Icarium means but I just can't imagine him trying to intimidate Rake like he did with Iccy in RG

[Sorry]

So, I thinkit's safe to assume at this point that it is almost impossible to say who is the best swordsman. There are too many different levels of power to look at to actually compare. For example, I would have to say that out of Ascendants who've lived for ages, Rake is probably the best. Out of Ascendants who've lived for a relatively short period of time, I would say Dassem. And out of Mortal swordsman, Brys.
However, if we include strength, anger and sorcery, I think that Icarium would press Rake pretty hard, and probably Karsa would down Dassem. But that wasn't the question. It's tough to look at straight sword skill without factoring in any other bonuses, but really, Rake, Dassem and Brys would be the top 3 for me. Who would win out between those 3? No idea.
Also, I think it's safe to assume that Rake could own Ossric as Rake is said to be stronger than:
1) Andarist (aka the younger brother 1)
2)Silchas Ruin (aka younger brother 2)
3) Scabandari Bloodeye (via Silchas), and because in the prologue to MT, Scabandari is really only worried about Rake out of the 3 tiste bros, and that apparently becomes his downfall.

And let's face it, he is hailed over and over as Mother Dark's first, eldest, wisest, etc child... and ruler of the Tiste Andii.

[Onos]

Sorry, on Dec 5 2008, 12:00 PM, said:

So, I thinkit's safe to assume at this point that it is almost impossible to say who is the best swordsman. There are too many different levels of power to look at to actually compare. For example, I would have to say that out of Ascendants who've lived for ages, Rake is probably the best. Out of Ascendants who've lived for a relatively short period of time, I would say Dassem. And out of Mortal swordsman, Brys.
However, if we include strength, anger and sorcery, I think that Icarium would press Rake pretty hard, and probably Karsa would down Dassem. But that wasn't the question. It's tough to look at straight sword skill without factoring in any other bonuses, but really, Rake, Dassem and Brys would be the top 3 for me. Who would win out between those 3? No idea.

Brys isnt exactly mortal anymore since he has returned from the dead... I am fine with people having different opinions but i still think Brys is over rated. I dont think anything he did couldnt have been done by any of the other top swordsmen had they been inclined to do so. I think we are basing entirely too much on that one (and only) fight. All that fight tells us conclusively is that Brys was better than Rhulads sword at that point in time. Maybe he really is way better than that, and one day we will learn it, but until that point putting Brys in the top 3 isnt far off from me saying Kruppe is in the top three. Kruppe hasnt lost any swordfights either...

Also we dont know conclussively how long Dassem has been around for. For all we know he could be Draconus's elder brother.

I am really trying to pull as many 'facts' out of the books regarding basic sword skill and strip away as many opinions as i can manage.

This post has been edited by Onos: 05 December 2008 - 06:46 PM

[Sorry]

Dassem was one of the Henchmen type who popped up when Kel and Dancer first started up the Malazan empire. I really don`t think he was an ascendant until he pledged himself to Hood and then after became Dessembrae (sp?)
As for Brys, I always forget that he's not actually dead anymore (don't know why) but still, when he was just a mortal he not only owned Rhulad but also that Demon guy guarding the Old Gods... just wondering who else (out of the mortals) do you think could have taken him??

[Grief]

Out of mortals, who could take Brys:

I reckon Mok would do well, as therefore would the first(assuming mortality).
There are other semi mortals who would aswell.

Actually silchas was the eldest.

Also, if we're counting magic thats just silly.

Icarium is a good swordsman, one of the best even, but K'rul, Draconus, Rake, Gothos etc, in terms of raw magical power, would destroy him.
Same goes for Brys, while a spectacular swordsman, would be owned by magical means.


Originally posted by Tennes, whoever that is ought to be ashamed. Also for lurking, bastard.

[BeLeG]

Silchas is the eldest?

eh....no?

[Solar]

I am convinced that Rake is the best swordsman revealed so far in the series.

The other major contenders would be Dassem and Icarium, but I think both can be ruled out pretty quickly. Icarium is quick, fast enough to totally startle Karsa, but Karsa was still able to react to the attack. Both Dassem and Rake were attacking too fast for Karsa to even see, which, IMO, puts them on a different level to Icarium.

Trull was able to keep up with Icarium too, if barely, and if anyone would know well Trull's capabilities, it is Fear Sengar - who did not know who would win in a fight between himself and Trull, but did know that Brys Bedict would win against him. Brys > Fear = Trull = Icarium, in terms of melee combat.

Anyway, Dassem and Rake then. Both were entirely equal throughout their battle, each under a certain handicap - Dassem would have lost the battle if he took a single injury (because Dragnipur seems to work that way), but the only injury sustained between the two was the blow that killed Rake. Rake's handicap was, IMO, far larger in a contest of such skill; Dragnipur was going crazy at the time of the battle, and only moments before he had been forced to the ground. Rake was able to keep up with Dassem even considering that strain. Remove that, and Rake would only have been faster.

And even considering that, he did throw the fight. In a proper fight without the limits Rake had and without him having to lose, he more than likely would have killed Dassem.

[Grief]

Anomandaris isnt.

Silchas is eldest.
Then Anomander.
Then Andarist.

As far as I recall.

[Solar]

Grief, on Dec 5 2008, 10:21 PM, said:

Anomandaris isnt.

Silchas is eldest.
Then Anomander.
Then Andarist.

As far as I recall.

Anomander, I think, is the eldest. Silchas is definitely the youngest.

[Grief]

Pretty sure anomander is middle.

[Lisheo]

Solar, on Dec 5 2008, 10:22 PM, said:

Grief, on Dec 5 2008, 10:21 PM, said:

Anomandaris isnt.

Silchas is eldest.
Then Anomander.
Then Andarist.

As far as I recall.

Anomander, I think, is the eldest. Silchas is definitely the youngest.

Anomander is the eldest, but I thought Andarist was the youngest? I could be wrong though.

[Solar]

I always get confused about Andarist. He is either the eldest, or Anomander is. But yes, Silchas in the youngest of the three.

[Grief]

Oh bollocks, see im gonna have to quote. Ignorant people.
Bet I turn out wrong

[Grief]

Anomander is middle.
Cant remember which is oldest. THought it was silchas.