[L'oric]

Trull's son, on Feb 11 2009, 04:38 PM, said:

I would like to add something on to the seguleh bit, and how people seem to believe that there is a great gap between the skill levels of top 20 segleh. It was mentioned that Mok was much better than the 11th, but based on what exactly? i don't recall seeing a formal seguleh duel, but Rell describes that the higher ranking seguleh duels can be won by technique, he even mentions that some seguleh have lost because they failed to perform a certain technique at the proper time. This implies that there is a skill "asymptote" if i may (i apologize for the reference to functions). the seguleh can get closer and closer to becoming the best (doomed to never achieve that title), and those that are of a higher rank will be extremely close to each other's level of skill (consider Rell). The best of their people (the top 20 or so) should be very similar when one considers skill.
The entire idea of the duels based on technique was messed for me when i was reminded of Rake's whole "killing the seventh" thing. hopefully it doesnt mean that the duels judged on skill are for those ranked higher than seventh, because my whole reply would be useless. but then it would also mean Rell was among those considered to be worthy of a judged duel, so he would have to be ranked among the top 6. Odd this little revelation....

I think Rell was speaking of the first 1000 Seguleh. While we (I) have no proof that there is a huge gap among the top 20 or so I must say that 1 has been 1 for a while and no one has tried to skip 2 or 3 to get to him. From what we know the Seguleh seem pretty stable at the top which means they are either comfortable with being where they are or they are not better than anyone above them. Considering how they might view things then they would believe that anyone worse Must be ranked lower in their eyes as they would not bow down to them unless they were better.

So yes duels can and maybe even often are won just on technique but it does not seem like there is enough of a change at the top to warrent thinking that everyone in the top 100, 50, 20, 10 are interchangeable to any degree.

It makes sense to me that killing duels outside of the judged ones would seem to be not the norm among the Agatii and that would make sense (to me) else you would have huge ramifcations after every duel as to who does what in the goverment,military etc.

If Rake had announced who he was then more Seguleh would not have attacked him just like only the highest was going to attack Iron Bars if he had said he was one of the Avowed. Rake might have only needed to fight the 7th and no one else and had time to look around.

Sincerely
L'oric

[muco]

Again with Karsa not good with sword thing!

I am yet to see someone breaching Karsa's defences with sword and that includes Icarium.

Dassem, Rake and Seguleh 1st definitly have better technique than Karsa but I wouldn't bet against Karsa even in a sword fight with these guys.

Karsa is incredbly fast, not just for someone his size, he is fast for someone from any size. Many instances where he surprised the best of people with speed.

Spoiler

Imagine the fight in ROTCG where Dassem impaled Kallor. What would you think Karsa would have done at that point? Run off or dismember Dassem and go on to strangle him?

Even a sword fight, you fight with the best tools you got. How would you define sword skill? Based on everyone is same size, same weight and with same sword, who would triumph? Not a practical assesment because the intangibles tend to weigh a lot in actual fight. And Karsa has more intangibles than say Dassem or Rake or even Seguleh 1st.

Pure sword skill, Dassem, Rake and Seguleh 1st higher but as a swordsman I wouldn't bet against Karsa in a fight with these three.

[Sinisdar Toste]

muco, on Feb 12 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

Again with Karsa not good with sword thing!

I am yet to see someone breaching Karsa's defences with sword and that includes Icarium.

Dassem, Rake and Seguleh 1st definitly have better technique than Karsa but I wouldn't bet against Karsa even in a sword fight with these guys.

Karsa is incredbly fast, not just for someone his size, he is fast for someone from any size. Many instances where he surprised the best of people with speed.

Spoiler

Imagine the fight in ROTCG where Dassem impaled Kallor. What would you think Karsa would have done at that point? Run off or dismember Dassem and go on to strangle him?

Even a sword fight, you fight with the best tools you got. How would you define sword skill? Based on everyone is same size, same weight and with same sword, who would triumph? Not a practical assesment because the intangibles tend to weigh a lot in actual fight. And Karsa has more intangibles than say Dassem or Rake or even Seguleh 1st.

Pure sword skill, Dassem, Rake and Seguleh 1st higher but as a swordsman I wouldn't bet against Karsa in a fight with these three.

damn brother. i have secretly held this belief for the entirety of this series. i know that people are going to come out with their rational logical fact supported arguments but like karsa i pay the commonly held beliefs systems little heed and through the simple power of my will make them irrelevant

[Toc]

Haha yeah, I agree aswell. I bet Karsa Orlong alone is the reason the series is called Malazan Book of the Fallen, and not Malazan Book of the Living.


Also, the best swordsman is Brys Beddict, now close this thread.

[beru]

segule 1st is the best swordsman based on SKILL not endurace speed or mass... no disscusion realy... bryss is GOOD same with daseem and rake but thats much flurry and not skill if you see my point (i try to say that they are good swordsmen beacuse they are fast and strong not skilled (even tho tey are that too))

[Grief]

We haven't even seen the first.
All we know is that he is about as good as mok.
Who was given pause by a severely weakened T'lan Imass using a sword made out of stone.

As for Karsa, he wouldn't stand a chance against some of these guys.

Maybe Dassem, cause dassem is human giving him a large strength disadvantage, but Rake?

Karsa couldn't even see the opening moves of his fight with Dassem.

Rake could take Karsa apart.

Dassem probably could too, thouhg he'd have to make up for his strength disadvantage.

Plus, if we're talking a no holds barred fight, Rake has Dragnipur.

You're telling me Karsa is truly skillful enough to kill Rake without getting hit once?

In a fair, even fight, Rake would still win, because he is strong enough to meet Karsa blow for blow, and is his superior with a sword. Karsa has some advantages, such as he's probably hard to kill, but I don't think he's really good enough that he wouldn't get killed.

Im not saying Karsa is slow. No, he's not. But he couldn't even see Dassem and Rakes opening, he was shaken by their fight.

[blackzoid]

Sinisdar Toste, on Feb 12 2009, 08:42 AM, said:

muco, on Feb 12 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

Again with Karsa not good with sword thing!

I am yet to see someone breaching Karsa's defences with sword and that includes Icarium.

Dassem, Rake and Seguleh 1st definitly have better technique than Karsa but I wouldn't bet against Karsa even in a sword fight with these guys.

Karsa is incredbly fast, not just for someone his size, he is fast for someone from any size. Many instances where he surprised the best of people with speed.

Spoiler

Imagine the fight in ROTCG where Dassem impaled Kallor. What would you think Karsa would have done at that point? Run off or dismember Dassem and go on to strangle him?

Even a sword fight, you fight with the best tools you got. How would you define sword skill? Based on everyone is same size, same weight and with same sword, who would triumph? Not a practical assesment because the intangibles tend to weigh a lot in actual fight. And Karsa has more intangibles than say Dassem or Rake or even Seguleh 1st.

Pure sword skill, Dassem, Rake and Seguleh 1st higher but as a swordsman I wouldn't bet against Karsa in a fight with these three.

damn brother. i have secretly held this belief for the entirety of this series. i know that people are going to come out with their rational logical fact supported arguments but like karsa i pay the commonly held beliefs systems little heed and through the simple power of my will make them irrelevant

Ya, rational logical belief systems like jumping over a cliff is stupid can be made irrelevant by the power of your will.
I hear you!
Go Karsa! Even gravity submit's to your will. I mean the fact that Cotillion warned Karsa never to stand in Dassem's way means nothing right? Or the fact that Karsa himself said that only a madman could stand between Rake and Dassem.
Or the fact that apparently Dassem's will could reassamble a shattered moon means nothing too right?
Cos Karsa is DA BEST!

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 12 February 2009 - 12:45 PM

[BeLeG]

Err Dassem is probably as strong as Karsa

He can throw human beings as javelins using only one hand
He can use Karsa's stone sword to test it(and its heavier than a normal Tlan Imass flint sword-which is REALLY heavy)

[Skywalker]

As I see it the hall of famer swordsmen are (in Alphabetic order):

Andarist
Anomander Rake
Blues
Brys Beddict
Dassem Ultor
Icarium (Trull was hard pressed stopping him, and that's saying something)
Karsa Orlong
Kallor
Onos T'oolan
Rell (who proved himself to be pretty darn good)
Rhulad Sengar (who is given a bad rep just cuz his style included dying )
Seguleh 1st - ??
Seguleh 2nd (takes more than gumption to hunt Skinner, so he must be skilled)
Seguleh 3rd - Mok
Skinner
Spinnock Durav (cuz he held Kallor to a tie)
Silchas Ruin

(Who'd I miss)

Anyway... my money is on either Brys or on Rake. Dassem got played in that fight. Also, Dassem beat Skinner.

Would be interesting to see where Onos T'oolan in his mortal form fits in against Brys/ Dassem/ Rake. Same for Kallor and Durav

[Hinter]

Here's one for the Karsa fanboys.

Finished my re-read of TtH very late last night and don't have the book on me so can't provide an exact quote. In the scene where Karsa and the Second are kicking the crap out of the hounds of light Karsa bellows and ancient Toblakai war cry not heard for years. The Second makes a comment something like "next time I hear that I might have to sort you out". Now seeing as the Second has just seen Karsa in action, therefore gauging his abilities, he seems to be pretty confident he'd be able to take Karsa down.

Just a thought, I'll try and provide quotes tomorrow...

[Grief]

Its something along the lines of "It's been hundreds of years since last I heard that warcry. Hope for your sake, Toblakai, that I never hear it again"

[Toc]

Well, the under-topic thing states that this thread is about the best swordsman based on skill, not power, so I'm sticking with Brys Beddict. As far as the books go we havn't seen anyone with the same accuracy with the sword.

Sure, both Rake and Dassem can swing their big two-handed swords around with both speed and power.
Sure, every Seguleh use a dancing type of fighting which involve alot of speed.
Sure, Karsa has great strength and speed, and a huge stone-sword he can swing like a one-hander.
And the rest, well they got everything from impenetrable armor to a rage that a very few can stop.

That takes ALOT of skill, but none of them has, as far as we know, cut of every tendon and sinew in an opponents body in a few heartbeats.

I'm not saying that Brys would win a swordfight against the top Seguleh, and I'm certain he wouldn't win against Rake or Dassem, but as far as SKILL goes he's number one. Atleast that's my opinion.

[blackzoid]

Toc, on Feb 12 2009, 01:39 PM, said:

Well, the under-topic thing states that this thread is about the best swordsman based on skill, not power, so I'm sticking with Brys Beddict. As far as the books go we havn't seen anyone with the same accuracy with the sword.

Sure, both Rake and Dassem can swing their big two-handed swords around with both speed and power.
Sure, every Seguleh use a dancing type of fighting which involve alot of speed.
Sure, Karsa has great strength and speed, and a huge stone-sword he can swing like a one-hander.
And the rest, well they got everything from impenetrable armor to a rage that a very few can stop.

That takes ALOT of skill, but none of them has, as far as we know, cut of every tendon and sinew in an opponents body in a few heartbeats.

I'm not saying that Brys would win a swordfight against the top Seguleh, and I'm certain he wouldn't win against Rake or Dassem, but as far as SKILL goes he's number one. Atleast that's my opinion.

True.
But what about Mok dismantling the Kell Hunter and balancing its severed head on his sword?
Thats pretty skillful as well, though he had help from the other two Segulah.

[Hinter]

Grief, on Feb 12 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

Its something along the lines of "It's been hundreds of years since last I heard that warcry. Hope for your sake, Toblakai, that I never hear it again"

Spot on, cheers mate

[L'oric]

Rake is dead! How can he be the best swordsmen if he is dead? When he comes back from Darkness through Chaos let me know. Sorry had to say that...it get sort of like Apt and the weight of Dragnipur being metaphysical (which is either buried or destroyed by Brood.)

Ok now that I have said that. Rake viewed as in the series still or as someone we have seen in the series is most likely the best. Even though he hasnt needed much skill in a few hundred thousand years given that everything he hits once dies. A testament to his skill at killing or to Dragnipur.

Brys is an interesting one. I did not like Midnight Tides very much; mostly because I kept on hoping one character would make it in from what I considered at the time "the series." What is a Malazan book of the Fallen without a Malazan? Anyway. Rhulad is killed by Iron Bars without much preamble though Iron Bars says he would eventually be very good. Rhulad fights Brys but Brys has known for a while that he can not kill Rhulad and so has had time to come up with a plan on how to stop him. Iron Bars sees how the Seguleh he fights was going for one of his arteries on purpose, but to kill. That Seguleh IMO could have easily just attacked to incapacitate he just had no reason to. So how does that fit in with Brys? My feeling is we have not seen someone attack just to incapacitate not kill because no one else has had the foreknowledge that Brys had in needing to.

Had Dassem known that Skinners armor was unpassable before hand that fight would not have lasted as long. As to the first Skinner vs Dassem debate we have two conflicting sides the Crimson Guard side says it was a standstill and the Malazan side said that Cowl helped him out or that he managed to survive Dassem's blade. I think in the second duel Skinner no longer cared about getting hit and it had an effect on his style.

As for best swordsmen right now skill or anywise. Dassem. I can not put Brys up past any of the Seguleh until he meets someone other than a punkish Rhulad no matter what he did to him.

Sincerely
L'oric

[Illuyankas]

Suicide =/= not the best.

[Grief]

Being dead doesn't make you any worse.
Considering that he intended to die, then it does not lessen his skill, nor show dassem as better.
Thats like saying that because Draconus killed himself by refusing to defend himself against some random mage, the random mage has more power.
That reasoning is just fail.

As for brys well, im pretty sure a couple of other characters could do that, the seguleh for example. Rake and Dassem aswell.
The thing is, we've never seen anyone else try to do that, so you can't judge.

It takes skill, but we've not seen any other character really attempt it, so we don't know how much. I also seem to have a memory of Rell saying something about some seguleh doing it aswell, though that may just be my memory.

[Hinter]

Seguleh 2nd is dead, and he's pretty handy.

[Grief]

There is a long list of dead people who are awesome with a sword, I would imagine.
In fact, realistically, there will have been mortals of awesome levels like dassem in the past. Its just that, being human, they die. Disease, age, whatever.

[Aptorian]

Hinter, on Feb 12 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

Here's one for the Karsa fanboys.

Finished my re-read of TtH very late last night and don't have the book on me so can't provide an exact quote. In the scene where Karsa and the Second are kicking the crap out of the hounds of light Karsa bellows and ancient Toblakai war cry not heard for years. The Second makes a comment something like "next time I hear that I might have to sort you out". Now seeing as the Second has just seen Karsa in action, therefore gauging his abilities, he seems to be pretty confident he'd be able to take Karsa down.

Just a thought, I'll try and provide quotes tomorrow...

If anything at all, the Second may very well be the most selfabsorbed, boistrous, holigan of any character Erikson has introduced. The guy would fight anything, at the slightest excuse. He's like a smaller version of Karsa, just more insane.