[Nandaki]

Shadowthrone, on Dec 3 2008, 11:42 PM, said:

Agreed but if you pit the teams from Euro leagues against Brasil and Argentina I'm afraid it would be a massacre.

This isn't true. The only opportunity we have to compare this is the World Club Championship and there the South American teams have held their own. In fact they have beaten the CL winners on occasion.

In 2005 Sao Paulo(Brazil) 1 - 0 Liverpool(England)
In 2006 Internacional(Brazil) 1 - 0 Barcelona(Spain)
In 2007 AC Milan(Italy) 4 - 2 Boca Juniors(Argentina)

And before that in the Intercontinental Cup, South American teams used to regularly beat their European counterparts.

[Macros]

I think shadow was trying to suggest that the south americans would hammer the eurovillans, which I thoroughly disagree with, especially now that the flair factor is considerably improved in europe.

The wikipedia page is actually very interesting but slightly irelacvcent when discussing current form, as lets fac eit, Forrest havent even been in the top flight for years

I will (disgustingly) support shadowthrone on the barca - man u match, messi made ronaldo look completely average, the rest of the team might have been static but messi took the piss out of practically every united player at some stage, even my horrible die hard "oh my got united are the best ev4r" united fan friends agree wholeheartedly with me on this, messi 0 another level completely, by far the best player in the world

[polishgenius]

Macros, on Dec 5 2008, 12:59 PM, said:

I will (disgustingly) support shadowthrone on the barca - man u match, messi made ronaldo look completely average, the rest of the team might have been static but messi took the piss out of practically every united player at some stage, even my horrible die hard "oh my got united are the best ev4r" united fan friends agree wholeheartedly with me on this, messi 0 another level completely, by far the best player in the world

I have to disagree. I'm only going by what I've seen, but although he's the best dribbler in the world at the moment (with the possible exception of Arjen Robben) he lacks the strength, craft and guile to move from great to legendary. He gets a lot of attention because he's small, Argentine and fantastic with the ball at his feet, but he's no Maradona. He's got the consistency going for him currently, but when they hit their stride, I'm more afraid of players like Kaka, Torres, and the aforementioned Robben and he's not on the level of Henry or Ronaldinho in their pomp.

I reckon I'm against the popular grain on that, but hey.

[Nandaki]

Macros, on Dec 5 2008, 06:29 PM, said:

The wikipedia page is actually very interesting but slightly irelacvcent when discussing current form, as lets fac eit, Forrest havent even been in the top flight for years

Yes, I did mention that it showed a generalized picture. But the point which I wanted to make is to show the competitivness of all the "big" leagues. Two of the names listed for England aren't in the top flight anymore and Aston Villa is not making it into the CL just yet. The teams that make it to the CL from England these days are there mainly because of the massive financial clout behind them. While teams from Spain and Italy are generally smaller(financially) teams coming through due to an excellent scouting system and a excellent coaching system. Example: Sevilla, Villarreal, AS Roma, Foirentina, Valencia, Udinese etc. These clubs will always remain competitve becuase of the system in place. While certain other clubs will last as long as the backer remains interested.

As for the Ronaldo vs Messi debate. The match in question I personally think Tevez played the best. But to say that Messi lacks strength, craft and guile to move from great to legendary, I am sorry that statement is flawed. I understand it's your opinion and you are entitled to it but many people tend to over look the fact that he is only 20 years old. And he is brilliant for that age. 2 years to 4 years down the line who is to say what he is to become.

[polishgenius]

Nandaki, on Dec 6 2008, 02:56 AM, said:

As for the Ronaldo vs Messi debate. The match in question I personally think Tevez played the best. But to say that Messi lacks strength, craft and guile to move from great to legendary, I am sorry that statement is flawed. I understand it's your opinion and you are entitled to it but many people tend to over look the fact that he is only 20 years old. And he is brilliant for that age. 2 years to 4 years down the line who is to say what he is to become.

True, and it is possible that he'll learn some craft. He'll never have the match intelligence of the best players though, because that's not something you learn, least not past the age of about 16. Hone sure, but not learn.
Still, Ronaldo properly sorted his on-pitch awareness so Messi could.

[Shadowthrone]

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I think shadow was trying to suggest that the south americans would hammer the eurovillans, which I thoroughly disagree with, especially now that the flair factor is considerably improved in europe.

Nope I was saying I thought the Euro teams would destroy S.A. teams. Nan makes a good point tho and I forgot those games. I still think that on a consistent basis the best Euro teams would beat the best S.A. teams (its all about money ain't it?).

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I have to disagree. I'm only going by what I've seen, but although he's the best dribbler in the world at the moment (with the possible exception of Arjen Robben) he lacks the strength, craft and guile to move from great to legendary. He gets a lot of attention because he's small, Argentine and fantastic with the ball at his feet, but he's no Maradona. He's got the consistency going for him currently, but when they hit their stride, I'm more afraid of players like Kaka, Torres, and the aforementioned Robben and he's not on the level of Henry or Ronaldinho in their pomp.

Umm how many Barcelona/Argentina games have you actually seen in the last 2 years? Robben on his best day doesn't even come close to Messi when it comes to dribbling IMO. To me Ronaldo and Messi are the best dribblers but Messi is much better at beating players at speed than Ronaldo. I would have to disagree with your disagreement

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The teams that make it to the CL from England these days are there mainly because of the massive financial clout behind them. While teams from Spain and Italy are generally smaller(financially) teams coming through due to an excellent scouting system and a excellent coaching system. Example: Sevilla, Villarreal, AS Roma, Foirentina, Valencia, Udinese etc. These clubs will always remain competitve becuase of the system in place. While certain other clubs will last as long as the backer remains interested.

A very astute observation man. Very good point!

Quote

True, and it is possible that he'll learn some craft. He'll never have the match intelligence of the best players though, because that's not something you learn, least not past the age of about 16. Hone sure, but not learn.
Still, Ronaldo properly sorted his on-pitch awareness so Messi could.

On pitch awareness? He has more on pitch awareness then Ronaldo does now even. His passes rip defenses apart. I'm not sure about this, maybe you are talking about a different Messi?

[polishgenius]

Shadowthrone, on Dec 6 2008, 06:54 PM, said:

On pitch awareness? He has more on pitch awareness then Ronaldo does now even. His passes rip defenses apart. I'm not sure about this, maybe you are talking about a different Messi?

Well I did say from the little I've seen. But from that little, it's not his passing that does teams, it's his dribbling. He gets into positions to make good passes, sure, but he's no Kaka or Fabregas who regularly take out entire defences with one pass.
Against us he had the ball time after time after time, but he never once looked incisive - no nifty throughball, no little run across the defender pulling the team out of shape. Sure, he beat players again and again, but he was running down the same blind alleys. That doesn't shout 'savvy' to me. If you look at the stats, Barcelona had 73% of the possession at their gaffe but only hit the target six times out of 20 shots. For that amount of possession that's a poor return.

As opposed to Ronaldo, who's natural talent doesn't come close to Messi's, but who works so hard on playing to his strength and ironing out his weaknesses. Three years ago his movement was poor and his team play generally not good, now even when he's off form like right now he's making contributions like today's flick-pass to Berbatov.
That said, I don't think Ronaldo's natural awareness is that good and never said it was, but he's a beast physically and clearly takes time to work on his weaknesses off the pitch. If you're looking for one of our players to big up for natural awareness, pick Rooney. His passing and movement are unbelievable at times. Pity about his temperament.

I'm puzzled by your views on best dribblers. Ronaldo's not close to it, his close control isn't really that good at all. If you watch him nowadays he very rarely takes a player on directly. I'm not going to argue otherwise than that Robben is inconsistent, injury-prone and has attitude issues, but I don't see how you can say he's not a fantastic dribbler - I reckon not as good as Messi close in (who is?) but much much faster. When he wants to be he's genuinely unplayable. That's just not very often.

I probably sound like I'm making Messi out to be worse than I'm trying to. When I say his awareness is poor I'm comparing him to the best of the best, not to your average player. I think he's a great player, I just think he's marginally overrated and I certainly don't think he's 'by far the best player in the world' like Macros says. He might be the best to watch at the moment, but that's not the same thing.

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I would have to disagree with your disagreement thumbsup.gif

Well fair enough. As you say I haven't seen that much of Messi and I could be completely wrong, I'm just giving my impression (for the record, the Barca player that does terrify me is Eto'o). I'd be terribly bored if everyone agreed with me...

[Macros]

messi isnt maradonna... oh ait

[Shadowthrone]

Wow I have seen both goals before but not side by side. The resemblance is uncanny

[Nandaki]

@ polishgenius

You are comparing the wrong players to Messi. Also Torres isn't creative plus he is an out and out striker, so doesn't fit in this set of players. Kaka is an attacking playmaker while Messi/C.Ronaldo are winger/forwards.They aren't expected to making defence splitting passes or clever flicks etc. They are expected to run at defenders pulling the opposition defence towards them, thereby creating space for their own team mates. Messi excels in the short pass department. You are judging him based on just one CL game. Even Kaka himself isn't the primary playmaker in Milan, it's Pirlo. Kaka too relies on a short passing game, playing one-two's with teammates to create space for himself before surging forward. Your comparison with Rooney too isn't fair. Rooney is a forward/playmaker being utilised to great effect by Capello in the Engalnd team. Capello did the same while coaching Roma with Totti. Who also is a great playmaker who uses his firsttouch, control, passing and creativity to run the game. But isn't a great dribbler.

But I agree with you on Robben though, Holland versus France in Euro 2008 is proof enough. He blew France out of the water.

[caladanbrood]

Barcelona 2 - 3 Shaktar Donetsk


'nuff said about Barca...

[Shadowthrone]

lmfao please tell me you're joking? Did you see their squad? The only first team player on the pitch was Pique (there were 5 youth team players playing). They still win the group mate so why would they play their top team?

[Macros]

shows lack of depth, and they had gudjonson on, once touted as one of the more technically gifted players in the prem.

Brood beat me to the haha barca lost to shitesk donarse, liverpool put out a pretty sub-par team and won 3-1. I'd say united won't be full strentgh tonight either.

[caladanbrood]

Shadowthrone, on Dec 10 2008, 12:39 AM, said:

lmfao please tell me you're joking? Did you see their squad? The only first team player on the pitch was Pique (there were 5 youth team players playing). They still win the group mate so why would they play their top team?

If they didn't already have an embarrassment of talent up-front, Bojan would have been estab;lished in the first team long ago, and Seydou Keita was absolutely crucial to Sevilla's awesome season - yes, it may not have been their first team, but don't knock it, it wasn't a vast amount weaker than their top 11.

[Shadowthrone]

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shows lack of depth, and they had gudjonson on, once touted as one of the more technically gifted players in the prem.

He is not a consistent starter though. And isn't the type of player who can run the midfield like Xavi or Iniesta. And to the contrary, 4 of the Barca youth academy played in that game which if anything shows a lot of depth.

Quote

Brood beat me to the haha barca lost to shitesk donarse, liverpool put out a pretty sub-par team and won 3-1.

Shakhtar is a very solid team with alot of experience. They have been in the CL for 5 years running and over that span have beat teams like Barcelona, Celtic, Roma, and Benfica.

Liverpool put out a team with Carragher, Mascherano, Keane, Riera, Agger. Five starters on the field whereas Barca only had one starter out (Pique) and he has only been starting because Milito is injured so...

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If they didn't already have an embarrassment of talent up-front, Bojan would have been estab;lished in the first team long ago, and Seydou Keita was absolutely crucial to Sevilla's awesome season - yes, it may not have been their first team, but don't knock it, it wasn't a vast amount weaker than their top 11.

Well Bojan is only 18 so I doubt he would have been "established in the first team long ago". Keita is good but as I said, not a starter and has only 3 or so full games under his belt since coming to Barca. It was a good team but it was a TON weaker than their top 11.

[Daser]

To me it is a draw.


Barca reserves lost at home to Minor team.

Man U tied with unknown team.


Equally lame.

[Macros]

im with daser, barca reserves should take on a minor team and win.
United drawing was brilliant

[polishgenius]

Nandaki, on Dec 8 2008, 07:48 AM, said:

@ polishgenius

You are comparing the wrong players to Messi. Also Torres isn't creative plus he is an out and out striker, so doesn't fit in this set of players. Kaka is an attacking playmaker while Messi/C.Ronaldo are winger/forwards.They aren't expected to making defence splitting passes or clever flicks etc. They are expected to run at defenders pulling the opposition defence towards them, thereby creating space for their own team mates. Messi excels in the short pass department. You are judging him based on just one CL game. Even Kaka himself isn't the primary playmaker in Milan, it's Pirlo. Kaka too relies on a short passing game, playing one-two's with teammates to create space for himself before surging forward. Your comparison with Rooney too isn't fair. Rooney is a forward/playmaker being utilised to great effect by Capello in the Engalnd team. Capello did the same while coaching Roma with Totti. Who also is a great playmaker who uses his firsttouch, control, passing and creativity to run the game. But isn't a great dribbler.

That's all fair, but I wasn't intending to compare them directly as players, merely in the fact that all the ones I mentioned are players that make me think 'shit, give him half a sniff and he'll beat us by himself' and Messi doesn't. The Kaka comparison being the most direct, I'll point to our games vs Barca and Milan for the example- given lots of the ball Messi didn't significantly trouble us, given probably less of the ball Kaka absolutely beasted us, despite in an attacking sense his team-mates not being precisely on fire in those games either. We were probably better defensively when we played Barca but Kaka's given me that sort of impression regularly.


Looking at this topic with some reflection I am being unfair on him, but at the time of the Barca game I was in several arguments with Messi supporters who claimed that the game was a showcase of how he's the best player in the world over Ronaldo, which I think tainted my view of him a bit. So I reckon I'll retract my assertion till I've seen a bit more of him.