[Epiph]

Traveller, on Dec 2 2008, 01:57 AM, said:

That was it. I'm re-reading RotCg, but have only just started, I'm hoping to pick up a bit more this time. I thought that

Spoiler

the way he fought, and reacted to Temp, that they were being reunited after Ferrule left at the end of NoK's - ie it was him, but with a new name.

Spoiler

I'm almost positive it was him, but I don't have my book with me to check, but it was definitely a member of the Sword, and since Temp and Ferrule are the only ones left living, it had to be Ferrule. I think that was the whole point of the playing with names that went on between him and Temp.

[rillish jal keth]

wiskeyjack should /could have been the next to rule after kevelland assended, he didnt want to start a civil war, lassen knew it she had dujek one arm made fist because she could control him and feared him less. thats way wiskeyjack was de-moted to sargent of the bridgeburners, who then got every bad battle etc soo as too kill them all. wiskeyjack is old guard

[Aptorian]

rillish jal keth, on Jan 30 2009, 12:19 AM, said:

wiskeyjack should /could have been the next to rule after kevelland assended, he didnt want to start a civil war, lassen knew it she had dujek one arm made fist because she could control him and feared him less. thats way wiskeyjack was de-moted to sargent of the bridgeburners, who then got every bad battle etc soo as too kill them all. wiskeyjack is old guard

What you're talking about here is the GotM explanation. MoI suggests that Lasseen expected all kinds of bad shit to happen, among that the Panion war, and as such placed her most talented material in tight spots with lower ranks. How the hell that actually makes sense nobody knows... but that is the excuse. WJ wasn't really supposed to die and the BBs were supposed to be protected in the tunnels under Pale. Not killed off.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

In HoC, on Drift Avalii, I think Apsalar (when talking about Trav) said she, by which she meant Dancer, knew him before Whiskeyjack. I think his name was stated there-am I right?

[Aptorian]

Of course she knew Dassem before Whiskeyjack. Dassem and Dancer used something like a hundred years carving out that empire.

[Karnadas]

Quote

QUOTE (rillish jal keth @ Jan 30 2009, 12:19 AM)
wiskeyjack should /could have been the next to rule after kevelland assended, he didnt want to start a civil war, lassen knew it she had dujek one arm made fist because she could control him and feared him less. thats way wiskeyjack was de-moted to sargent of the bridgeburners, who then got every bad battle etc soo as too kill them all. wiskeyjack is old guard


What you're talking about here is the GotM explanation. MoI suggests that Lasseen expected all kinds of bad shit to happen, among that the Panion war, and as such placed her most talented material in tight spots with lower ranks. How the hell that actually makes sense nobody knows... but that is the excuse. WJ wasn't really supposed to die and the BBs were supposed to be protected in the tunnels under Pale. Not killed off.

That's funny, because I've just read Rillish's explanation in MoI... Though Whiskeyjack came to the conclusion that Lasseen didn't give a rat's rear about the Bridgeburners, she just wanted to kill him...

Then again, I haven't read the Artanthos unmasked bit again yet - I seem to remember it making me like Tay a lot more...

On-Topic: I'd definately consider WJ Old Guard - Sub-Commander to the overall commander of the Emperor's armies can't be that low a rank... Especially considering he had the oportunity to contest the throne after NoK...

The way I understood the concept of Old Guard was simply that they were in the military before Kellanved perched himself on the throne of shadow...

This post has been edited by Karnadas: 30 January 2009 - 09:23 AM

[Mcflury]

Karnadas, on Jan 30 2009, 10:20 AM, said:

The way I understood the concept of Old Guard was simply that they were in the military before Kellanved perched himself on the throne of shadow...

The Old Guard are actually the people who helped finding the empire, those 10ish few. Whiskeyjack wasn't part of them, he was indeed a loyal soldier, and probably already was a soldier when Kelly finally took the throne, but back then he wasn't the hottest potatoe around. He only became that popular in the years after Kelly had the throne, and started expanding his empire.

Not every cool character in the books is old guard

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Jan 30 2009, 12:24 AM, said:

What you're talking about here is the GotM explanation. MoI suggests that Lasseen expected all kinds of bad shit to happen, among that the Panion war, and as such placed her most talented material in tight spots with lower ranks. How the hell that actually makes sense nobody knows... but that is the excuse. WJ wasn't really supposed to die and the BBs were supposed to be protected in the tunnels under Pale. Not killed off.

Until SE comes out and says "I messed up the writing in GOTM" I think I'll believe the GOTM version given that the MOI version is based on Tay's, the prime suspect's, "explanations" (I.e lies). Of course he'll spin the story to make himself and Laseen look innocent and well meaning. With the plot foiled he has to work with WJ and Dujek again so telling Dujek and the army that "yeah, we tried to kill you all because you're too good and don't kiss Laseen's ass enough. Now go and fight this war and sacrifce yourself for us " isn't going to work.

This post has been edited by Urizen: 30 January 2009 - 12:59 PM

[Karnadas]

Quote

The Old Guard are actually the people who helped finding the empire, those 10ish few. Whiskeyjack wasn't part of them, he was indeed a loyal soldier, and probably already was a soldier when Kelly finally took the throne, but back then he wasn't the hottest potatoe around. He only became that popular in the years after Kelly had the throne, and started expanding his empire.

Not every cool character in the books is old guard

I'm sorry, which thrones are you talking about? you're not very clear on it... In the first instance, I'm assuming that you mean the Throne of Shadow, and the second the ME throne, seen as he gave up his empire when he ascended... But it still doesn't make much sense to me, could you clarify please?

Oh, and could someone lay this to rest by quoting the passage that says the Old Guard are the 10ish few, because I though they were his "family" to be exact...

Also, how could Dujek be part of the "family" when (I'm pretty sure) Duiker remembers him as a low-ranker during the 7C campaign...

[D'rek]

McFlurry means the Imperial throne, but he's mistaken in that he's thinking solely about Kellanved's "family" and not about "the Old Guard". The first page of this thread explains it pretty succintly...

[Mcflury]

D'rek, on Jan 30 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

McFlurry means the Imperial throne, but he's mistaken in that he's thinking solely about Kellanved's "family" and not about "the Old Guard". The first page of this thread explains it pretty succintly...

I meant the Imperial Throne indeed (yeah, I know, many thrones in this series, but I was talking about the imperial one indeed, the least powerful )
The first page doesn't really teach or explains anything to me when quick-reading it through. I still don't think there's a huge difference between the Old Guard and Kelly's family (as you put it). Perhaps I'm just shitting crap out of my mouth again, thinking I'm important and/or interesting. Maybe I should stop typing when I'm 1 pint away of being drunk....

[Grief]

At one point we are given Definition of old guard as those still loyal to the emperors memory. Not loyal to laseen, just to the empire. Or something.
Kells family is the few he started out with, Surly, Dancer, etc.

[D'rek]

Mcflury, on Jan 30 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 30 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

McFlurry means the Imperial throne, but he's mistaken in that he's thinking solely about Kellanved's "family" and not about "the Old Guard". The first page of this thread explains it pretty succintly...

I meant the Imperial Throne indeed (yeah, I know, many thrones in this series, but I was talking about the imperial one indeed, the least powerful )
The first page doesn't really teach or explains anything to me when quick-reading it through. I still don't think there's a huge difference between the Old Guard and Kelly's family (as you put it). Perhaps I'm just shitting crap out of my mouth again, thinking I'm important and/or interesting. Maybe I should stop typing when I'm 1 pint away of being drunk....

Well, the first page has a list that says "This is the Old Guard:" and also a post that says "This is Kel's 'Family': "

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

The family and the old guard aren't the same...the former is a group of Kellandved's closest generals, advisers and stuff, and the latter are those who served with distinction during the Emperor's time.

[Karnadas]

That's the impression I got, which would definately make WJ Old Guard (in my view anyway).

On another note, it would be really interesting to know how exactly Kellanved managed to invade and conquer the better part of two continents starting out with just Malaz Isle...

[D'rek]

Sounds like a topic for a new thread!

[Aptorian]

Karnadas, on Feb 2 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

That's the impression I got, which would definately make WJ Old Guard (in my view anyway).

On another note, it would be really interesting to know how exactly Kellanved managed to invade and conquer the better part of two continents starting out with just Malaz Isle...

Really easy, Kelanved uses power and influence to gain tons of knowlegde on ancient lore. Being the clever bastard that he is, he deduces the location of the first Empire throne. A couple of years later Quon Tali and The Seven Cities Sub-continent is Kelanveds and nobody wants to try a revolt because he has the combined force of two or three clans of T'lan Imass doing his biding. Of course then they went off on a Jaghut warhunt, Kelanved died and everything started to turn ugly.

[beru]

i must say it was but one clan... and i think Tool was there too not two or three but with teir abilety to turn to dust and the fact that they are nerly unkillable it cant be hard to keep a continet silent

[L'oric]

I can not resist and have to add/concur with a few others.

Old Guard is not necessarily only those who first started out as part of the Kallanved, Dancer, Dassem, Surly, Urko, Crust, Nok troupe. To those few that lived in the deadhouse should be added all those commanders and heroes/high mages that came from Kallanveds time on the throne of the Malazan Empire. Did Toc the Elder live in the deadhouse with them?

Of those Whiskeyjack should be included. Head of the BB's during 7C campaign. A High First of an army at the time of Dassem's death equal to Surly who became Emperess.
Sincerely,
L'oric

[D'rek]

L'oric, on Feb 6 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

Of those Whiskeyjack should be included. Head of the BB's during 7C campaign. A High First of an army at the time of Dassem's death equal to Surly who became Emperess.

At the time of Dassem's death:
-WJ wasn't a High Fist
-wasn't equal to Surly
-wouldn't even have been equal to Surly if he was a High Fist (Imperial Regent outranks High Fist...)


but still, Old Guard. Seriously, first page, I made a list. I think it sums it up nicely, myself...