[L'oric]

Steel General, on Feb 5 2009, 08:56 AM, said:

I agree with Bottle having the potential to be a Highmage, but I don't think we don't know enough about him (and his powers/skills) yet to say for sure.

Bottle has potential. Most of the High Mages (looking at high mages of Power not of the army or beings like Obo) need to be pushed or need to push themselves past their normal casting ability. This is what I think QB calls stretching, of course surviving that stretching is the key. Was Bottle stretched enough by six months to a year of constant castings of Meaneas, Jakatan Earth Magic, Denul, Mockra, and whatever other warrens he needed to use? Remember when confronted with a Demon his best attack spell sans time to think about it was Mockra. Telling us what he was most confortable with as far as raw damage capable he is, if SE was even thinking along those lines. Bottle is definately a favorite ever since he told the captain he was someone else in order to get them punished.

PS not sure about how long the invasion of Lether took. Anyone know?
Sincerely
L'oric

[Silander]

Just a few points to make. It's mentioned that all the squad mages were taught a few tricks from different warrens for the invasion of Lether. That can be explained away easily enough using two points of info.
1. SE ran this as a RPG before going to book format. He used gurps, he has said it at readings. That's fact. In gurps there is a spell called 'lend spell'.
2. In memories of Ice, when the Malazans are engaging the enemy in an ambush..I think Blue pearl or one of the mages is mentioned as loaning a spell to another squad mage.
At some point in the books (I've a terrible memory) it's mentioned that warren use can be thought to anyone. Therefore people who already are used to the idea of channeling warrens and performing spells could quickly pick up "tricks" from other warrens, even if they forget them after a few days or weeks. May be they can remember them for good, or maybe they are one shots.
I always felt that Beak was sorta Autistic, which might make him seem like a simpleton but in actual fact would mean that he is hyper intelligent but just unable to handle social situations very well. Autists often can visualise numbers and patterns as colours and landscapes helping them to remember astounding details and vast quantities of info with relative ease, ease that beggars modern Mathematics professors etc. We can see that he visualises each warren in a unique way, so while his inherent understanding of warrens might surpass that of even QB's etc, his might works on a totally different level and ideas such as manipulation, lies and deceit might not come very easily to him at all.
As to Bottle, I think he is a swiss army knife of warrens and techniques: He has a few useful ones but one main tool. I doubt he is as skilled at any one warrren as an actual high mage would be, but breathe of knowledge counts for as much for depth. A useful guy to have around.

This post has been edited by Silander: 16 February 2009 - 12:08 PM

[taffy13]

Remember, Fiddler also remarks that Bottle reminds him of Quick Ben, and that this fact scares him.
Quick ben was not always as powerful as he is now. For example, a mage can access a warren and be vaguely adept, but it takes a while for them to gain a true understanding of their warren. However, waht makes Qucik Ben special, apart from the fact that he has 12 souls, is that he has really good understanding of mutiple warrens. Bottle has the potentail to grasp solid understanding of his warrens and on top of that he has his special ancient earthen magic.
So someone just give him 11 more souls and he'll be awesome in a few years.

[Kryphon]

I always thought part of Bottle's skill was the fact that he understood Holds, which so far only QB and (can't remember herr name, the woman travelling with Karsa). I know QB has referenced the Holds as being more... unstable that warren magic. His fight with the Edur at sea I think is where he referenced holds and them being careless. I suppose it could have been the Chaos mixed in as well, which actually sounds more fitting.

So as an added on question... Does hold magic trump warrens? Aside from the Letherii it seems as though MOST magic wielders have no clue what the holds are. And back to my original point, wouldnt Bottle's understanding of holds aid in his future development as a High Mage?

[Tophat]

I wouldn't say holds trump warrens. Seems to me that holds are raw, unrefined and pure power. Capable of delivering huge damage but without the ability to channel, refine or focus that power such as you get with warrens.

Also holds are unwieldy, the magic used against the 7th took a week to prepare before it was resleased and destroyed teh mages who cast it. In most situations you'd have to back a high mage of the warrens over any hold based mage every time.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

So far as I can see Bottle seems to be a vastly weaker version of Quick Ben he can use multiple warrens/holds and can use old magic some of these things he can seemingly do ewven better than Quick. If he had as much raw power as Quick has he'd be a contender but despite having talent and skill he lacks comparable power to any of the high mages we've seen.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Ben Adephon Delat, on 23 October 2009 - 10:41 AM, said:

So far as I can see Bottle seems to be a vastly weaker version of Quick Ben he can use multiple warrens/holds and can use old magic some of these things he can seemingly do ewven better than Quick. If he had as much raw power as Quick has he'd be a contender but despite having talent and skill he lacks comparable power to any of the high mages we've seen.

Right now I'd say that's true. But I think Bottle definitely has the potential to become more powerful. Just look at what Beak and Fiddler see when they look at him during that purifying thing Beak did. They saw raw, unchecked power that he had yet to master. That to me means he is gonna be a player before the end of these books. Also you hafta figure that having the Eres'al take that much of an interest in you, and hanging around operating through you has got to have some lasting effects (not exactly Cotillion/Apsalar, but somewhat comparable).

[Abyss]

One thing we absolutely get from TB and RG is that a mage who extends themselves beyond their presumed limits may (maybe) extend their own power level, assuming they survive the attempt.

Bottle has skill and the potential for considerable raw power. He's also being exposed (ahem) to the Eres'al, a primal and powerful being. As of the end of RG, he's pretty burnt out, but in theory, the Beakwash and just the experience of constantly pushing himself thru the Marines' guerilla campaign may have already bumped him up a bit, like a marathon runner who finally pushes themselves that extra 10k... it's easier the next time.

- Abyss, drank that extra beer the other night and just hasn't been the same since...

[Ben Adephon Delat]

The increase in power isn't likely to be that great in Bottle's case. Quick pushed himself so hard he was tearing himself apart and could possibly have died. Bottle only pushed himself to exhaustion if he increases at all it's likely to not be as noticeable as Quick suddenly blasting Soletaken Dragon's out of the sky

[Silencer]

And that increase in power is now under debate, anyway. DoD forum, but people are looking again at the fact that Quick didn't really increase his power that much, just decided he could use more than before.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Wouldn't that basically make it even less likely that Bottle is or will become a High Mage.

[Silencer]

Yes and no. There are other ways to do it than just one big "power up" session. You aren't born a High Mage, you have to work to get there, and that takes years, centuries even. (You've got to survive, too)

I think Bottle's biggest problem is that he's actually too nice. Even Quick is a conniving, brutal guy at times, and Tay and Sinn are both definitely willing to sacrifice human lives. Bottle...he's less inclined to violence, or manipulation. I still think he'll come out and make it to High Mage eventually...though not necessarily in the main story arc that culminates in TCG.

The other thing that I think people are realising, is that the term "High Mage" is misleading. Tay and Quick have that as a formal rank, and as a recognition of their power. However, what Bottle and others show us, is that the assumption that Tay and Quick's power levels as seen in the books are not normal. Tay taking on Rake? That shows what "High Mages" are really made of. Quick taking on the three sisters, Icarium, challenging the Edur ritual, controlling the descent of a mountainside...that's High Mage stuff.

We then see squad mages who are doing stuff that is "beyond what you'd expect" - from the perspective of their squadmates. It starts to look like there are more High Mages than is thought. But then you have to reconsider. Even if all the squad mages teamed up, as they are portrayed to be more powerful than anyone, even Quick and such expect, and tried to take on Quick Ben or Tay? They'd get beaten down. It's just that we don't actually see Quick and Tay going all out that often, and even when they are it doesn't *sound* much different from what the others do.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Beak wasn't exactly a bastard and he was powerful enough to be a High Mage. Sure he's probably an exception being some sort of magical savant but he shows that ruthlessness in the application of your powers doesn't translate to said powers being or appearing stronger

[Silencer]

He was only a High Mage in the sense that he could use of all his warrens with mastery - yes, a definition of it, but his problem is that he's a special case. He could never be an 'official' High Mage because he quite simply isn't motivated to use his power save for incinerating himself in the defence of his friends.

Beak, on the other hand, is not a master of his warrens. Not yet. And in order to survive long enough to become a true High Mage, he's going to have to get used to scheming and killing people. Just imo.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Well answer me this can every mage become High [Insert Warren name] of whatever Warren they use or do people have limits to how far they can go even in ideal conditions? If the answer is the latter then who's to say that outside of using multiple warrens that Bottle isn't just a middling wizard

[Silencer]

Good question. Can every person ascend? Yes. 99% don't, however. Can every mage become a High Mage? I'd say yes, even if 99% don't.

Plus, we have seen through RG that Bottle does have the potential. He is just not there yet. Whether he does or doesn't, or even if he survives the series, is all up to the author...but it's been suggested in the books that he has the capacity to become a High Mage, and usually author's don't put in a Chekhov's gun like that unless it's going to be used later, though I wouldn't put it past SE.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

All I saw was evidence of skill up until the end when Fiddler looked at him while they were under Beak's protection but what Fiddler saw could have been the Eres'al's influence. I say that because a wizard should based on the nature of magic have no power inside them determining how strong they are rather they should have a greater or lesser capacity to channel their warrens power

[Silencer]

But a mage's will and capacity manifests itself as power. I can't recall exactly, but I believe the words were to the effect that he had the 'capacity' and the 'potential', rather than actually being a real power inside of him. Which is why he's called "Bottle", of course.

[Abyss]

Silencer, on 23 October 2009 - 11:13 PM, said:

Yes and no. There are other ways to do it than just one big "power up" session. You aren't born a High Mage, you have to work to get there, and that takes years, centuries even. (You've got to survive, too)

Nope. See Sinn. Sorno too, tho that's technically cheating.

Quote

I think Bottle's biggest problem is that he's actually too nice. ...

Not a factor. Look at Tattersail, who was generous to a fault, or Bellurdan, who was arguably dumb but pwerful as all hell.

Quote

The other thing that I think people are realising, is that the term "High Mage" is misleading. Tay and Quick have that as a formal rank, and as a recognition of their power. However, what Bottle and others show us, is that the assumption that Tay and Quick's power levels as seen in the books are not normal. Tay taking on Rake? That shows what "High Mages" are really made of. Quick taking on the three sisters, Icarium, challenging the Edur ritual, controlling the descent of a mountainside...that's High Mage stuff.

And that's the thing - there is the formal rank of High Mage as designated in a given army - or Atri-Ceda or Clawmaster or whatever is appropriate, and then there are mages whose powers are so strong that they are considered 'High Mages'. Sinn was barely a squad mage until YGatan and then she reeled in the firestorm and someone said 'hey, she's a high mage' and so she was. QB stayed squad mage, even tho he was more powerful than any cadre mage and most High Mages in the army... plus he faked it at least once.

Quote

We then see squad mages who are doing stuff that is "beyond what you'd expect" - from the perspective of their squadmates. It starts to look like there are more High Mages than is thought. But then you have to reconsider. Even if all the squad mages teamed up, as they are portrayed to be more powerful than anyone, even Quick and such expect, and tried to take on Quick Ben or Tay? They'd get beaten down. It's just that we don't actually see Quick and Tay going all out that often, and even when they are it doesn't *sound* much different from what the others do.

True. Plus there are levels even to High Mages. Tays, a High Mage, and probably an ascendent or god in hiding, took on Rake and Nightchill at the same time. Kuru Quan almost wiped out the entire Edur race. QB pimpsmacked dragons.

Bottle couldn't have done ANY of those things. At least, not yet.

Ben Adephon Delat, on 23 October 2009 - 11:51 PM, said:

Well answer me this can every mage become High [Insert Warren name] of whatever Warren they use or do people have limits to how far they can go even in ideal conditions...

everyone has limits. Some surpass them, some reach them and burn out. That's the difference.

Silencer, on 25 October 2009 - 01:19 AM, said:

...Which is why he's called "Bottle", of course.

Clever. rep'd.

- Abyss, full of potential.

[Silencer]

*bows*

I will concede the point on Tattersail, though she technically never made it to the rank of High Mage, and was getting absolutely beaten down in the Enfilade (further proof of levels within High Magery).

But! I will point out that Sinn is a prodigy. I'd be willing to be that not many people manifest as High Mages when they're that young, and do so in the middle of a firestorm. (Come to think of it, the firestorm is probably the reason she got revealed, but that power was already in her, she just didn't know how to use it...hence the impression that she's on autopilot during the episode).