[Eleint]

So I really wasn't happy with my last run at this - eventually worked up the motivation/inspiration to make another pass at it. The second image shows my very rough attempt at coloring. It's the first time I've actually tried my hand at digital "inking" or coloring, so any feedback would be appreciated and considered.

Still not happy with either face, and a lot of the shading is pretty flat. Hopefully I'll come back to this someday when it's not actually my first coloring and fix it up. Anyway, let me know what you think!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Seems a bit young...but well done.

[caladanbrood]

I agree that the face is your main problem area there. The nose especially needs more shading to bring it out, and a more obvious depressing under the brow-line wouldn't hurt. I'd also suggest turning the eyes abit, there's no suggestion she's of Quon Talian descent.

Love the robe though

[Macros]

bar the micheal jackson nose its great

[ammit]

Eleint, how old are you? Get some lessons, you can't be over thirteen and draw like this.
Basic rules of shaping, shading and anatomy are not kept. Every style requires some knowledge of realism, else all the drawings in it are doomed to look this shapeless and unprofessional.
Sorry for being too harsh, I've realized criticism is what one needs in order to improve and one of the main reasons for me to progress so slowly is that I've never been given enough of it.

[Aptorian]

ammit, on Nov 29 2008, 10:28 PM, said:

Basic rules of shaping, shading and anatomy are not kept. Every style requires some knowledge of realism, else all the drawings in it are doomed to look this shapeless and unprofessional.

This is nonsense.

Drawing is drawing, while calling drawing an artform might be an exaggeration in most cases, there are no "rules" for how you draw anything. There is merely style and expression. I don't know how to draw anything but stickfigures but at least that much I know. Envy doesn't look very "realistic", more like a disney figure, but that's a style too.

That said, the posture and form of the body, especially the first picture, reminds me of drawings for fashion designs. The kind of sketch you'd make and add an idea for a piece of clothing before you actually start making it.

[ammit]

Aptorian, on Nov 29 2008, 10:00 PM, said:

ammit, on Nov 29 2008, 10:28 PM, said:

Basic rules of shaping, shading and anatomy are not kept. Every style requires some knowledge of realism, else all the drawings in it are doomed to look this shapeless and unprofessional.

This is nonsense.

Drawing is drawing, while calling drawing an artform might be an exaggeration in most cases, there are no "rules" for how you draw anything. There is merely style and expression. I don't know how to draw anything but stickfigures but at least that much I know. Envy doesn't look very "realistic", more like a Disney figure, but that's a style too.

That said, the posture and form of the body, especially the first picture, reminds me of drawings for fashion designs. The kind of sketch you'd make and add an idea for a piece of clothing before you actually start making it.

Then I'll keep pondering why the hell is amateur art created and posted. And I still can't think of an answer, maybe except the speculation that it is actually tries to fall into the category of the artistic and aesthetic. But that's just my opinion, no need to be tolerant, I consider tolerance hypocrisy...
A drawing is successful when it obviously represents what the artist wants it to represent. This means there actually are rules, based on the way the human brain interprets whatever is seen. The difference between success and failure can easily be told in this sphere. I see no clear distinction between Envy's palms and wrists, but the author apparently wasn't aiming at Powerpuff-Girls-style limbs.
And yes, you need to be acquainted with rules and techniques of realism in order to achieve perfection even in Disney-like animation. Perspective is definitely required whatever you draw, the "disney" style also requires basic shading (yet both are failed at in the drawing above). Moreover, realism gives you the experience and dexterity, knowledge of shape which you can afterward use in every non-schematic style. Explaining- complicated muscle and bone structure is built on formulas and start from a simple "mankin" and there's really not that much skill in hand required, yet this way dexterity is gained. I wouldn't recommend drawing animation until you are able to draw a perfect circle of a perfectly straight line by hand. The fewer and much more distinctive lines used in animation, however, need to be precisely made. I don't care if Envy is realistic- animation is actually simplified realism (counting anatomy, yes), not simplified goo. When drawing a living creature, especially human, make sure it looks animate and capable of moving.
Fashion figures apparently have muscles, fat and bones underneath the skin, this Envy doesn't.


Note that I'm not trying to insult or discourage anyone. I myself am nothing more than an amateur and will gladly show my old and new stuff if required.

This post has been edited by ammit: 30 November 2008 - 12:38 AM

[caladanbrood]

ammit, on Nov 29 2008, 11:37 PM, said:

Note that I'm not trying to insult or discourage anyone. I myself am nothing more than an amateur and will gladly show my old and new stuff if required.

Wow, you're doing a very good job of it, none the less.

Having the idea and having the neccessary tools to bring that idea into reality are two entirely different things. Only by practice can you improve, and posting for feedback is a good way of knowing where to practice. What doesn't help is that kind of trolling, nor personal attacks, and we don't accept that on this board. If you have nothing constructive to add, please don't add anything at all

[Darkwatch]

ammit, on Nov 29 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

Note that I'm not trying to insult or discourage anyone.

Mind explaining the following then?

Quote

Eleint, how old are you? Get some lessons, you can't be over thirteen and draw like this.

I think you confuse criticism and insults.

Your aesthetic debate is meant for the disscussion boards. This is about posting fanatsy related "Art" regardless of your personal definition.

Brood's first post in this thread is an example of criticism. You might consider emulating it.

[Aptorian]

Now, now children. No reason to bash poor ammit. He does have a point, allthough he wasn't very diplomatic about it.

I'd actually like to see some of ammits stuff.

[Spindrift]

ammit,
To start with, i've spent the last 5 years at art school and by god i swear must have wasted all my money because what the Christ is the Rule of Shaping?

You sound like someone who has just started art lessons or read a few how-to books and is mis-applying their newfound knowledge.
Nothing you say is strictly incorrect, but you are not being constructive in your criticisms. Which, in the end, is the same thing as being an asshole. You need to be aware of where you are and who you are talking to and what their own purposes are in creating art are.

This is not a professional or even a Serious amateur art forum. This is a fan-art sub-forum on an authors fan-site. It's purpose is to share our fan artwork of our most-loved books & characters among likeminded people. When we can help each other out with improving then that's good too. But there are far better places on the internet for the kind of mid-level/advanced criticism you are talking about.

What's funny is that this is not even that bad, the proportions are mostly pretty good. Theres some issues with the fingers & feet, and the dress could use some draping. The colouring is fantastic for a first go at digital painting. There are some beginners mistakes like using white for highlights, an indecisive outline and the aforementioned nose issues (the nose thing is actually a small issue, easily fixed, but it's importance on the face makes it seem a big problem). But on the whole it's pretty damn decent.

[Chaos]

When I saw the sketch I didn't like the long braid of hair but you've done a good job with the colouring and I'm actually converted on that. The previous comment by someone regarding the fashion pose is definately true but in the same heartbeat I consider Envy to be someone who is very much aware of every move she makes and it's effect on people, I could easily see her in this pose.

Overall I liked it mate, my only comment would be that she does appear a bit.. someone said young which is yes but no. She seems too innocent. There is no glint in her eye, no smirk on her face that indicates you could be enslaved by a single kiss. Now, that is one HELL of a hard thing to do and something I don't think many people could capture but keep on trying, the results are definately worth my time to look at and enjoy!

Oh and on an aside: If Spin says it's good, you know you're doing something right

[Battalion]

ammit, on Nov 29 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

Eleint, how old are you? Get some lessons, you can't be over thirteen and draw like this.
Basic rules of shaping, shading and anatomy are not kept. Every style requires some knowledge of realism, else all the drawings in it are doomed to look this shapeless and unprofessional.
Sorry for being too harsh, I've realized criticism is what one needs in order to improve and one of the main reasons for me to progress so slowly is that I've never been given enough of it.

I'd like to see some of your stuff, please, Ammit, so that I can give you some of my 'constructive and helpful hints'. Don't worry though, I wont ask you what age you are, or were when you drew the thing, I'm not really bothered about things like that.

Personally, I think it's a good picture.

Keep up the good work, Elient.

[Lisheo]

I also think its a very good pic, Eleint. And please, less borderline trolling, Ammit. We don't take kindly to it here.

[Aptorian]

Okay, I'm not a moderator in this particular forum but I would like it if people would get off ammits case. Yes, ammits criticisme was harsh but that doesn't mean that we need five outright hostile reponses directed at ammit. We don't encourage trolling as Lisheo says but personal attacks aren't wanted neither.

I think ammit got the message that his post was less constructive and encouraging than what is expected. Let's keep it at that.

Discuss the drawings merits and the creators skill, not each others attitude. If you can't stick to those guidelines we might aswell close the thread.

[ammit]

Don't bother, Apt, there's no chance for me to feel offended. Btw I'm a girl, check my profile.
[spoiler]Spindrift, please, not the old "YOU THINK YOU KNOW MORE THAN ME!?" trick, it's as old as time and damn cheap.
Nah, this topic needs no more trolling, I shall continue the discussion with the others on PM. Mods, leave this last note in existence, please.

[Aptorian]

Oh, you're a girl... fancy that. then I hope that avatar isn't a picture of you like I originally thought

[D'rek]

Well I wouldn't know much about posture and such, but I really like the choice of garment, Eleint. I think that's just the kind of thing Envy would wear to walk across a collapsing Meckros city full of icebergs, and at the end of it everyone is flabbergasted that it's not dirty in the least. As for the previously mentioned bit of her being too young or innocent-looking, I'm sure she's quite capable of looking very demure and innocent, whether or not she is capable of acting it...

Great job Eleint! Hope to see more of your stuff soon!

[Epiph]

The hands are fantastic, hands and feet are always my sticking points. There's some shading under the eyes in the original sketch that I think adds more mystery and takes away some of the afore mentioned innocence that the colored drawing has (which is awesome, by the way. I gave up trying to digitally color my drawings a long time ago because it was so frustrating). And the proportions are great, except the bust to waist or bust to hip ratio, the boobs are a bit too...Barbie-ish. I can't imagine Envy with honkin' boobs simply because, as the possessor of a somewhat obscene decolletage, I don't associate them with the grace and elegance that Envy has in spades.

[Eleint]

Wow, this post got a good deal more attention than I expected, which I maybe have Ammit to thank for, indirectly.

Ammit: I appreciate your brutal honesty; I admit that I am very unpracticed, and generally unlearned with regards to drawing, and especially coloring. However, some of your criticism is very heavily opinionated, and as such, I feel may not be as helpful as you imagine. Perhaps if you could be more specific, rather than generally disapproving, I could make efforts to fix, or avoid errors in another attempt. Regards proportion: I actually feel I made a considerable effort towards being faithful to realism, and even idealism here. If you measure it, I believe you will find the body is about 7 and a half heads tall, the halfway point is just below the pelvis, the arms fully extended reach just to the top of the thigh. I actually started with a simplified skeleton, adjusted it immensely to correct proportion and stylize the posing, then I fleshed it out, bare of clothing, down to some muscle contouring, and then I used that outline to attempt to guide my clothing lines, and afterward, hair. In terms of anatomical detail, I do think I fall a bit flat, and hands/wrists could use more work than I put into them so far, especially in terms of shading.

Caladan: There is actually one passage in Bonehunters where it mentions spite as having pale skin, black hare, and epicanthic folds on her eyes - that struck me as quite plausibly Quon/Kanese. Of course being Envy's sister, I assumed some similarity would exist. That said, I am significantly unhappy with the face as a whole right now, eyes included.
Edit: found the quote - "In the clearing directly ahead, half-sitting half-leaning on a boulder, was a woman. Tall, her skin the color of fine ash, long black har hanging loose and straight. ... Her eyes were large, black, with elongated epicanthic folds tilting upward at the corners..." BH p. 713

Spin: Thank you for the commentary, and I think you're right, the outline could be stronger and more defined - my biggest problem with achieving that digitally is lines are harder to control when working with a mouse. :/

D'rek: Thank you! I based that scene very heavily on an MoI description: "Lady Envy appeared from the gloom with her entourage in tow. She was dressed in a thick, midnight blue robe that hung down to brush the dew-laden grasses. Her hair was tied back into a single braid." MoI p.188

Epiph: Thank you for the comments; I think you may be right regards the bust-hip ratio, and that may be one of the things that's been subtly bothering me. I'll probably try adjusting it a little, and see what happens.


To everyone, thanks for all the attention and feedback, and the concern over civility in the thread. I'll continue to post back as I update!

This post has been edited by Eleint: 04 December 2008 - 06:05 PM