[Aptorian]

I believe that Erikson has stated that he placed the convergence in Darujistan because it would be the coolest place for it to take place. Sort of ruins any other speculation.

[Saf]

Silencer, on Dec 16 2008, 02:53 AM, said:

No, the fact that Draconus had Kadaspalara preparing a ritual for the express purpose, and that Mother Dark viewed what Rake had done as worthy of her forgiveness, I somehow doubt Rake did not intend it. Otherwise, why did he bother going to Darujhistan, and plotting with Hood? To avoid Traveller killing Hood? What difference would that have made, really?

And Karsa was not freaked out at Traveller. He was freaked out at Traveller and Rake. "No one in their right mind would step between those two now" or something to that effect. Emphasis added on two.

Mmm well that kind of detracts from the whole thing for me. I'm less into the uber-powerful and omniscient Rake story than I am into a little bit of serendipity and luck drawin the strings together. I reckon it could be possible that Rake was hoping Hood would succeed in destroying dragnipur, otherwise why bring in Hood at all, I mean just slice your own throat with the sword if that's your goal.

[Silencer]

Which is, in turn, answered by Apt's quote of SE. Because it was cool. When that question - why bother with the fight, why not just slit his own throat...because that ain't cool. That's the answer.

I'm surprised - I can understand you not liking omnipotent characters, but I would have thought that it's understandable Rake was such, unless you've been in denial about that since GotM?

To me, that makes it more awesome that he did this. A guy who is practically unstoppable...let himself be killed to get redemption for his people? And to free Traveller up for later fights against whatever? That's....pretty awesome.

[Saf]

Silencer, on Dec 16 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Which is, in turn, answered by Apt's quote of SE. Because it was cool. When that question - why bother with the fight, why not just slit his own throat...because that ain't cool. That's the answer.

I'm surprised - I can understand you not liking omnipotent characters, but I would have thought that it's understandable Rake was such, unless you've been in denial about that since GotM?

To me, that makes it more awesome that he did this. A guy who is practically unstoppable...let himself be killed to get redemption for his people? And to free Traveller up for later fights against whatever? That's....pretty awesome.

No I disagree He was guarding Hood's body for a reason, and set someone to stop Kallor for a reason as well.
I think Rake was counting on Hood to solve the problem. The death struck me as more tragedy than clever design, SE doesn't usually need to use crappy tricks like that to make his story entertaining...

[Silencer]

Really? What effect could Hood and his army have had? It was a pointless stand - the type Hood would appreciate. The chaos simply would get eternally stronger, there was no way to stop it reaching the wagon. Why would Rake have needed to guard Hood's body, in any case?
Recall Gothos' talking about Rake - "You always made the right decision". Rake is prescient, there can't be much doubt of that, certainly. There is no reason that what Rake did wasn't tragic. He sacrificed himself...how is that not tragic? Sure, it was his intention...but he still ended his own life for a cause.

And SE did actually say that was the reason in an interview...not that everything he says in the interviews can be taken as truth.

[Aptorian]

Saf, on Dec 16 2008, 09:13 PM, said:

No I disagree He was guarding Hood's body for a reason, and set someone to stop Kallor for a reason as well.
I think Rake was counting on Hood to solve the problem. The death struck me as more tragedy than clever design, SE doesn't usually need to use crappy tricks like that to make his story entertaining...

I agree, the concept of the convergence in TTH is not pretty and rather disappointing storytellingwise, and no it does not make sense.

He was guarding Hoods body because there is power in ascendant blood and he was waiting for Dassem to show up so that they could have a fight. After Rake died, Dassem was then supposed to either pick up or at least guard the sword. He was the perfect choice for that job, unfortunantly Dassem is badshit and broke because of it.

[Silencer]

I don't get that, Apt. Why even bother killing Hood? The people who turned up weren't after Hood's Blood - they forgot all about that once Dragnipur was up for grabs! It probably made the convergence worse!

[Saf]

Silencer, on Dec 16 2008, 03:31 PM, said:

Really? What effect could Hood and his army have had?

Well who knows? It's not like this particular scenario had ever occurred to any of them before.

If the legions of the dead couldn't stop it... It's also mentioned that the legions of the dead overcame the combined might of the Jaghut race, implying some pretty serious power.

Incidentally, it isn't clear whether Hood was trying to get rid of all of his dead or whether he was actually meaning to stop the force. Perhaps Hood just wanted a clean start elsewhere. Perhaps that was the deal, releasing hood from the souls he carried. After all he does end up giving his messenger away and sending off his soldier on final errands.

And for that matter, maybe once the souls in the sword were eaten by chaos, he sword would cease to be a burden on Rake who, if you'll recall, had ceased the killing with it. this was the reason that chaos was catching up. Maybe he was tired of it as well and wanted the sword to self destruct or something...

In fact that would make more sense with trying to keep people from it, because if another wielded it, they would fill the damn thing with souls to pull that monstrosity inside...

Greg

[Aptorian]

Hood asked to be killed. There is two reasons for this. I'm guessing it sort of severed his position as King of Death symbolically. And it made sure that Hood could be a beacon for the dead. His last command had been something like, come to me. And this guided the dead into Dragnipur.

The reason to why the dead were there was, apparently, to delay chaos long enough to let Rake do what ever he needed. And yes that is still not very logical and no it is not a pretty explanation and it could have been handled a hell of a lot better. Good thing Rake didn't just stab himself a couple of months earlier in his bathroom while no one was looking.

[Andirak]

Heh, readers (me included) amaze me.

If Rake had killed himself (not specifically at you, Apt), I am inclined to think that that would have been even less liked than this seemingly sketchy convergence. SE would have been accused of all manners of things.

Traveller didn't strike me as someone fighting to lose. As in to get inside Dragnipur (I say this because I saw some say he wanted to follow Hood there. Did he even know for sure Hood was inside?)

Anyway, he wanted to remove Rake from his path, and if that involved killing him, well, he would not back down. Was he broken because he killed Rake, or because he realized Rake had manipulated him into killing him? And that's how I interpret Karsa's 'cheated'. Neither knew that Rake intended to be inside Dragnipur, and, at least to Karsa's POV, Traveller was denied a clean fight.

[Aptorian]

Apparently Dassem didn't realise Hood was in the sword. Otherwise he probably would have thrown himself on Dragnipur

[Dancer+]

You're wrong about that Apt. Dassem may want Hood but he's not going to commit suicide to not have the chance to destroy him.

I hope we get some insight into what happens to Dassem next.

[Aptorian]

He's not going to kill himself to get to Hood? I don't agree. The picture RCG paints of Dassem is a man on the edge of madness, burdened by his obsession, driven to extremes and a man who is utterly relentless. He nearly declared war on Assail for hoods sake (metaphorically speaking) because they dared to delay him.

If getting chained in Dragnipur to catch Hood was what it would take he would have done it, and it would have ment that Hood had no where to run.

But more importantly, he asks Rake where Hood is and Rake leads him to believe that he is hiding Hood from Dassem. Dassem senses Hood but doesn't realise he's inside the sword.

Funny question is where the hell Hoods body went, but it's not so important.

[beru]

and just to clear out the disscusion on who is the superior swords man... Rake was lifting and moving TONNS when he was swinging that sword Trav moved only his sword... (somwere in TtH rake lays Dragnipur on a stone slab wich istantalys breaks. that was BEFOR hood enterd with his army)

[Aptorian]

Oh no, not this again

The weight of dragnipur is not "real" it's a metaphysical kind of strength and stress. If Rake was litterally wielding the weight of a around a thousand tons plus, what do you think would happen when Rake swung the blade at Dassem at the speed of sound? Dassem would be found someplace in a mountain range across the continent. Everytime Rake took a step his leg would go through the ground like a highheel on a womans shoe. If he overshot a swing the sword would disappear deep under ground, etc, etc.

[Saf]

Aptorian, on Dec 16 2008, 11:28 PM, said:

Hood asked to be killed. There is two reasons for this. I'm guessing it sort of severed his position as King of Death symbolically. And it made sure that Hood could be a beacon for the dead. His last command had been something like, come to me. And this guided the dead into Dragnipur.

The reason to why the dead were there was, apparently, to delay chaos long enough to let Rake do what ever he needed. And yes that is still not very logical and no it is not a pretty explanation and it could have been handled a hell of a lot better. Good thing Rake didn't just stab himself a couple of months earlier in his bathroom while no one was looking.

Well I'm hoping something comes up in the series to contradict what seems to be such a ridiculous over dramatization. SE is pretty famous for convergences by now but at the cost of making any kind of sense at all, that's getting a bit weak. I'm not sure it was worth it to force fit the climax of the novel like that.

I'd also like to find out what the heck Hood had to gain by all this. I got the impression that a God's powers were correlated with the quantity of worshipers they had. In hood's case that would be his undead legions which he just blew on a lark. I hope it pays off for him

[beru]

Aptorian, on Dec 17 2008, 09:24 PM, said:

Oh no, not this again

The weight of dragnipur is not "real" it's a metaphysical kind of strength and stress. If Rake was litterally wielding the weight of a around a thousand tons plus, what do you think would happen when Rake swung the blade at Dassem at the speed of sound? Dassem would be found someplace in a mountain range across the continent. Everytime Rake took a step his leg would go through the ground like a highheel on a womans shoe. If he overshot a swing the sword would disappear deep under ground, etc, etc.

i think Dragnipurs weight only effects its bearer... (and ennyway a sword at that weight can easely be missgided by a lose parry)

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Dec 17 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

He's not going to kill himself to get to Hood? I don't agree. The picture RCG paints of Dassem is a man on the edge of madness, burdened by his obsession, driven to extremes and a man who is utterly relentless. He nearly declared war on Assail for hoods sake (metaphorically speaking) because they dared to delay him.

If getting chained in Dragnipur to catch Hood was what it would take he would have done it, and it would have ment that Hood had no where to run.

But more importantly, he asks Rake where Hood is and Rake leads him to believe that he is hiding Hood from Dassem. Dassem senses Hood but doesn't realise he's inside the sword.

Funny question is where the hell Hoods body went, but it's not so important.

"Funny question is where the hell Hoods body went, but it's not so important."

Not important?
IMO Its the most important question in the entire Hood-Dassem-Rake convergence!

SE makes such a big deal of the headless Hood and Rake being mirror images of each other when they kneel down in the street after Rake has beheaded him.
Then Dassem shows up later and we have 2 options:
1: He ignores and says nothing about the fact that the enemy he has tracked for years is lying beheaded on the street, RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS EYES.
He knows his enemy is dead. So he either fights Rake to kill him, because Rake killed Hood, and Dassem wanted his vengence satisified himself. Or the insane option, he fights Rake to lose and get inside Dragnipur. In which case we have two combatants fighting to lose and get inside Dragnipur.

2: Hood's body has been hidden somewhere, and Dassem thinks he is still alive. He thinks Rake is standing in his way and attacks him cos thats what he does to people in his way.

Perhaps SE meant that Dassem found out the truth after killing Rake and thats why Dassem is broken, but he does not make it at all clear.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 18 December 2008 - 06:10 PM

[Lisheo]

Hood's body gets dragged away and presumably eaten by one of the Hounds of Light. Its only one line, but it goes something along the lines of "the Hound raced down the street, a chewed, headless body in its maw"

And presumably, Dassem only sees a cloaked, robed, headless corpse on the ground. Without a head, one guy is kinda hard to differentiate from another.

[blackzoid]

Lisheo, on Dec 18 2008, 06:11 PM, said:

Hood's body gets dragged away and presumably eaten by one of the Hounds of Light. Its only one line, but it goes something along the lines of "the Hound raced down the street, a chewed, headless body in its maw"

And presumably, Dassem only sees a cloaked, robed, headless corpse on the ground. Without a head, one guy is kinda hard to differentiate from another.

Good point about the Hound, I had not thought of that.

A cloaked headless Jaghut should be easy to spot. They are rather bigger then humans. Wonder if the Hound ate Hood's head?
Of course, I am assuming that Dassem knew that Hood was a Jaghut. Maybe he had to piece together the clues like we did?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 18 December 2008 - 07:02 PM