[Urizen]

beru, on Jan 23 2009, 08:56 AM, said:

Aptorian, on Nov 19 2008, 05:38 AM, said:

Plenty of speculation on this is prior threads. The most likely reason is that Seguleh differ to their superiors. Karsa bestet her and that means she's going to let him face Rhulad, her tittle of Seguleh 11th? was already lost.

There's also the thing that she believed that Rhulad could not beat Karsa after fighting Karsa herself. So there was no interest in it for her.

i agree... BUT where does it say she is 11th?

I seem to vaguely recall someone (Samar Dev maybe?) thinking about that the Segulelh mask has 10 or 11 marks on her mask.

[D'rek]

I believe it was in a summary of the various champions arriving with the return of the fleet. Not sure exactly when the passage was, but before they were in the champions' barracks. Maybe when they were disembarking from the ships in Lether?

[Revenant]

beru, on Jan 23 2009, 01:56 AM, said:

Aptorian, on Nov 19 2008, 05:38 AM, said:

Plenty of speculation on this is prior threads. The most likely reason is that Seguleh differ to their superiors. Karsa bestet her and that means she's going to let him face Rhulad, her tittle of Seguleh 11th? was already lost.

There's also the thing that she believed that Rhulad could not beat Karsa after fighting Karsa herself. So there was no interest in it for her.

i agree... BUT where does it say she is 11th?

So I was just re reading RG and it appears that the Seguleh in Letheras is not the 11th, but the 12th.
Early on when the fleet comes back and disembarks, Feather Witch mentions a "silent woman with a porcelan mask bearing 11 arcane symbols across the brow", as being one of the challengers.
From what I remember, Mok had "twin Slashes" down his mask, the Second had 1, and the First was rumoured to have a mask with no markings whatsoever.
By this Logic, If she has 11 symbols, that would make her the 12th.

It also states that She was found amongst the wreckage of a Scow south of Callows, half dead.
So....where was she going?
Maybe she was part of another punative army such as Mok, Senu and Thurule.
This could explain why she left Letharas. She realized that Karsa could defeat Rhulad, so she just continued on with her mission. Whatever that is.

This post has been edited by Revenant: 12 June 2009 - 03:11 PM

[limping dog]

Revenant, on Jun 11 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

It also states that She was found amongst the wreckage of a Scow south of Callows, half dead.
So....where was she going?
Maybe she was part of another punative army such as Mok, Senu and Thurule.
This could explain why she left Letharas. She realized that Karsa could defeat Rhulad, so she just continued on with her mission. Whatever that is.

I'm on my 2nd re-read of the series and currently on RoTCG. Your question to 'where was she going' isn't answered but it might give some insight to where they found her.

Spoiler

I vaguely recall the meeting between the sailing segulah and Iron Bar's crew.

[MTS]

1) "South of Callows" is nowhere near where Iron Bars and co. were, so it can't be her.

2) ROTCG happens a while after RG so she's found and then gone from Letheras before ROTCG even happens, so it ain't her.

"South of Callows" suggests to me a military expedition, as it's close to home, so Revenant's theory has merit.

[Sheve]

Revenant, on Jun 11 2009, 11:01 PM, said:

S
From what I remember, Mok had "twin Slashes" down his mask, the Second had 1, and the First was rumoured to have a mask with no markings whatsoever.
By this Logic, If she has 11 symbols, that would make her the 12th.

But the problem there is that the second have twin slashes aswell.

[MTS]

"The Soldier was tall, and Cutter now saw something hanging from a knife-studded belt. An enamel mask, cracked, smudged, with a single streak of red paint along one cheek."

No problem at all.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 16 June 2009 - 07:58 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Spoiler

Ah, but when he and Karsa face the Hounds his mask his twin scarred:
"something flashed in the eye-holes of the twin-scarred mask, well done toblakai! now lets chase down the others"

Be mindful of what forum you're in please.

-Grief.

[MTS]

"Scarred" doesn't mean it has two slashes on it - the slashes are in paint. In my quote it says the mask is cracked, so that's probably what he's referring to (just to confuse us probably ).

[limping dog]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Jun 16 2009, 02:56 PM, said:

1) "South of Callows" is nowhere near where Iron Bars and co. were, so it can't be her.

2) ROTCG happens a while after RG so she's found and then gone from Letheras before ROTCG even happens, so it ain't her.

"South of Callows" suggests to me a military expedition, as it's close to home, so Revenant's theory has merit.

Spoiler

I was more referring to the boat of segulah they ran into. possibly another ship; they're going somewhere. buy hey, my timeline sucks so, whatever.

[Giles]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Jun 16 2009, 08:58 PM, said:

"The Soldier was tall, and Cutter now saw something hanging from a knife-studded belt. An enamel mask, cracked, smudged, with a single streak of red paint along one cheek."

No problem at all.

But we do have the problem that the seventh had 7 marks on his mask.
""Rake said the last swordsman he faced wore a mask with seven symbols
Mok tilted his head " that mask still awaits him, Blacksword holds the seventh position.""

[beru]

mabe the colour of the paint does have somthing to say about rank too? or somthing ?



Beru: trying to remove errors with crappy esplanations since 1991

[MTS]

*shrugs* I'm not sure what to make of that little "anomaly". Mistake by SE perhaps? It's possible. I know I'd get confused by that. I doubt the colour of the paint would have anything to do with it though - I think if it did we would've been told by now...

[Sindriss]

Probably a mistake, since we know that #1 has no markings on his mask, we can apply this logic to the other masks.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Maybe the Seguleh Second just does things differently...in that weird, schizophrenic way of his.

[Abyss]

Btw, i was just rereading RG and Feather Witch definitively says the mask has 'eleven arcane symbols'.

Now, according to the generally accepted theory, since the first has a white mask, and Mok had two marks and was third, the 'rule' for ranked Seguleh (as opposed to 'initiates' like Senu and possibly Thurule, and 'Blackmasks' ) seems to be rank = # marks +1 (except for the 1st, of course).

Of course, uphtread we find an inconsistency with the 2nd, and the 'Seventh'... we might explain away the Rake vs 7th thing as Rake having faced the 8th when there was a vacancy, but the 2nd is a pretty big one... but fear not... i explain... Cutter spots the mask on the 2nd's hip, but when Karsa speaks with the 2nd the Seguleh is actually wearing it... so it's a different mask. he has a collection. One's a fashion accessory, the other is for work days. He likes to mix it up a little. It's what all the cool kids were doing. One line was SO last century. Oh, fuckit....


- Abyss, ...can't say i didn't try....

[High house Me]

I personally think that the whole theory about different coloured paint is plausable as their ranks go up to 1000 if im nt mistaken an b pretty hard to get that many marks on a mask. unless diferent coloured masks and stuff

[D'rek]

High house Me, on 06 September 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

I personally think that the whole theory about different coloured paint is plausable as their ranks go up to 1000 if im nt mistaken an b pretty hard to get that many marks on a mask. unless diferent coloured masks and stuff

The Agatii may be called "the thousand" but there may not literally be exactly a thousand, and either way they probably don't keep rank in the same direct numerical way all the way up to 1000. Likely only the top few (I'd say hundred at the absolute most) have numeric rankings like that and beyond that there are grouped levels or some such. Thurule is probably among those grouped levels (his mask was a weird pattern of some sort but he ranked much higher than Senu).

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

I don't get this bit about the Segulah taking a powder either. The theories offered here make sense (that she no longer had the right due to being beat in sparring by Karsas), but the Letherii specifically state that Ruladh had killed ALL the champions except for the last two, one of which ran off (Icarium). After reading that, all of a sudden the Segulah is popping out of the bolt hole in the city wall.

Hinter, on 23 January 2009 - 11:26 AM, said:

i agree... BUT where does it say she is 11th?

I thought she was the 13th actually.

They always have one less mark on their mask than their rank. The #1 guy has a clear unmarked mask, so #2 would have one mark, #3 two marks, and so on.

I do know it's stated that she's the 11th, but not how it's stated. Whether Erikson said she had 11 marks on her mask (making het 12th) or was the 11th.

In Memories of Ice, someone (Lady Envy, I think) is telling a story about Anomander Rake fighting the 7th of the Seguleh, but in another passage the Segulah themselves say Rake has to go back and take his rightful place as the owner of the mask with seven marks, which would actually make the Segulah Rake beat #8.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Kruppe of Darujhistan, on 16 September 2009 - 12:28 AM, said:

I don't get this bit about the Segulah taking a powder either. The theories offered here make sense (that she no longer had the right due to being beat in sparring by Karsas), but the Letherii specifically state that Ruladh had killed ALL the champions except for the last two, one of which ran off (Icarium). After reading that, all of a sudden the Segulah is popping out of the bolt hole in the city wall.

Hinter, on 23 January 2009 - 11:26 AM, said:

i agree... BUT where does it say she is 11th?

I thought she was the 13th actually.

They always have one less mark on their mask than their rank. The #1 guy has a clear unmarked mask, so #2 would have one mark, #3 two marks, and so on.

I do know it's stated that she's the 11th, but not how it's stated. Whether Erikson said she had 11 marks on her mask (making het 12th) or was the 11th.

In Memories of Ice, someone (Lady Envy, I think) is telling a story about Anomander Rake fighting the 7th of the Seguleh, but in another passage the Segulah themselves say Rake has to go back and take his rightful place as the owner of the mask with seven marks, which would actually make the Segulah Rake beat #8.

Yea, there are a bunch of inconsistencies with the Seguleh ranking system. Some people try to come up with a bunch of ways to make it work, but I think Erikson just messes up on occasion. It's not really a huge deal to me.