[vagabond]

In one of the paragraph's, Rhulad mention's how the monk was a failed contender, so he's not actually part of the challenge. It's possible that after karsa beat her, she become one as well, since she probably deferred to him like apt mentioned.

On a side note, what exactly are seguleh? are they humans? or other half-blood/variations of imass? i don't think i came across their origin anywhere.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

vagabond, on 14 October 2009 - 10:32 PM, said:

In one of the paragraph's, Rhulad mention's how the monk was a failed contender, so he's not actually part of the challenge. It's possible that after karsa beat her, she become one as well, since she probably deferred to him like apt mentioned.

On a side note, what exactly are seguleh? are they humans? or other half-blood/variations of imass? i don't think i came across their origin anywhere.

seguleh are humans, they have just devoted their entire life to the study of swordsmanship, it is basically their religion. and all humans are actually descendants of the imass that didn't undergo the T'lan ritual.

[D'rek]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 15 October 2009 - 02:24 AM, said:

vagabond, on 14 October 2009 - 10:32 PM, said:

In one of the paragraph's, Rhulad mention's how the monk was a failed contender, so he's not actually part of the challenge. It's possible that after karsa beat her, she become one as well, since she probably deferred to him like apt mentioned.

On a side note, what exactly are seguleh? are they humans? or other half-blood/variations of imass? i don't think i came across their origin anywhere.

seguleh are humans, they have just devoted their entire life to the study of swordsmanship, it is basically their religion. and all humans are actually descendants of the imass that didn't undergo the T'lan ritual.

descendants of non-ritualed imass?! Quote or it didn't happen. Maybe you are mixing them up with Barghast?

[Sinisdar Toste]

the barghast are a mix of imass and T3. its implied in HoC that Kilava is the progenitor of humanity

now of course the evolution from kilava's children to the humans we see today took many tens of thousands years, but humans are descended from imass in this universe. what else could be the case?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 15 October 2009 - 03:51 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

D, on 15 October 2009 - 02:49 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 15 October 2009 - 02:24 AM, said:

vagabond, on 14 October 2009 - 10:32 PM, said:

In one of the paragraph's, Rhulad mention's how the monk was a failed contender, so he's not actually part of the challenge. It's possible that after karsa beat her, she become one as well, since she probably deferred to him like apt mentioned.

On a side note, what exactly are seguleh? are they humans? or other half-blood/variations of imass? i don't think i came across their origin anywhere.

seguleh are humans, they have just devoted their entire life to the study of swordsmanship, it is basically their religion. and all humans are actually descendants of the imass that didn't undergo the T'lan ritual.

descendants of non-ritualed imass?! Quote or it didn't happen. Maybe you are mixing them up with Barghast?

I can't remember a specific time when people talk about it, but I'm pretty sure its implied, and said outright many times in the series. I think maybe the first time is in GotM when Raest wakes up, sees humans and thinks about how much they remind him of the imass from his day

[D'rek]

I actually was reading that rather wrong when I replied, thought you were saying a more direct link between Seguleh and Imass than the usual human link. Nevermind I said anythin'

[Mirthmonkey]

The Seguleh raises the problem I have with Karsa again. IMO he's been made stupidly powerful and without adequate justification for how he got that way. It started going too far for me when he disposed of those two ancient wolves (degulath?) and dragged their heads around. Now the Seguleh... Other books go on about what incredible fighters the Seguleh are. We see them going toe to toe with some "super" characters and really giving them a run for their money. Yet here's one of the best Seguleh there is and she's nothing to Karsa. He defeats her with ridiculous ease.

Karsa's been set up as a near invincible character even in a world becoming increasingly full of super characters, which makes him less than interesting to me. Granted Icarium is just as invincible, but he has an unusual personality to go with it and generally isn't looking for a fight. The dynamic is very different.

[Sinisdar Toste]

karsa has been very set up to be a powerhouse. he's a prime specimen of a race of 8 foot giants, the best warrior in the most savage tribe. he's been the plaything of the CG and has more than once slapped the CG in the face. he carries around a personal warren that batters aside elder magic and has been ingesting otataral in liquid form and wearing it close to his body for most of his adult life, making him heal faster and resist warren magic. he absolutely refuses to break, while still being willing from time to time to bend his worldview to accommodate all that he is learning. his will is terrible to behold and is a force that others must recognize.

the deragoth failed to recognize and they underestimated him. everyone who does that to karsa orlong dies.

/end fanboy rant

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Mirthmonkey, on 16 October 2009 - 06:41 PM, said:

The Seguleh raises the problem I have with Karsa again. IMO he's been made stupidly powerful and without adequate justification for how he got that way. It started going too far for me when he disposed of those two ancient wolves (degulath?) and dragged their heads around. Now the Seguleh... Other books go on about what incredible fighters the Seguleh are. We see them going toe to toe with some "super" characters and really giving them a run for their money. Yet here's one of the best Seguleh there is and she's nothing to Karsa. He defeats her with ridiculous ease.

Karsa's been set up as a near invincible character even in a world becoming increasingly full of super characters, which makes him less than interesting to me. Granted Icarium is just as invincible, but he has an unusual personality to go with it and generally isn't looking for a fight. The dynamic is very different.

When I first started reading about Karsa I didn't like him that much either, but I think when you look at him you just find out he is very subtle. Ok, after i read that I lol'd a little bit to myself, but I'm gonna stand by it. Karsa doesn't say much, but whenever he does he usually makes the person he is talking to stop and think for a few minutes because he just rearranged their entire ideology with one statement/question. As for how powerful he is, Karsa is the champion of a society of warriors that don't ever get sick and heal incredibly quickly. What makes him nearly invincible though, is the power of his will. That is a theme in the series, some people are basically so strongwilled they refuse to die (see: Karsa, Kallor, the Crippled God, etc...). If you want a quick explanation of Karsa's efficacy read the scene in HoC where he enters the ring of High Tellan to free the trapped Jaghut. She describes it as "ignorance honed into a weapon" thats basically why he is able to overcome everything.

[King Lear]

Mirthmonkey, on 16 October 2009 - 06:41 PM, said:

The Seguleh raises the problem I have with Karsa again. IMO he's been made stupidly powerful and without adequate justification for how he got that way. It started going too far for me when he disposed of those two ancient wolves (degulath?) and dragged their heads around. Now the Seguleh... Other books go on about what incredible fighters the Seguleh are. We see them going toe to toe with some "super" characters and really giving them a run for their money. Yet here's one of the best Seguleh there is and she's nothing to Karsa. He defeats her with ridiculous ease.

Karsa's been set up as a near invincible character even in a world becoming increasingly full of super characters, which makes him less than interesting to me. Granted Icarium is just as invincible, but he has an unusual personality to go with it and generally isn't looking for a fight. The dynamic is very different.

I thought HoC was an adequate justification for how he got that way.
Just idly, what's the point of a whole world without super characters?

[Mirthmonkey]

Crone, on 20 October 2009 - 07:30 AM, said:

I thought HoC was an adequate justification for how he got that way.
Just idly, what's the point of a whole world without super characters?

Who said anything about "a whole world without super characters"? I just observed that there seem to be an awful lot of them now with more popping up all the time. I just finished Return of the Crimson Guard, so there's that. But more relevantly to Karsa, in a world with many super characters, it's struck me as odd that after we're told how powerful they are, compared to Karsa most of them are nothing. He tears through anyone and everyone with ease. I suppose it's at least easier for me to buy that when it's some many thousands of year old ascendant like Rake.

Sure, Karsa's a great warrior from a race of really big dudes though I don't recall any particularly special training that made him such an incredible fighter, just that he grew up in a war-like society where everyone learns how to fight. But hey, I suppose I'm also not a "fan" of a character who's a jackass 99% of the time. His redeeming quality is telling the CG where to stick it and walking away.

[D'rek]

Mirthmonkey, on 26 October 2009 - 06:19 PM, said:

Crone, on 20 October 2009 - 07:30 AM, said:

I thought HoC was an adequate justification for how he got that way.
Just idly, what's the point of a whole world without super characters?

Who said anything about "a whole world without super characters"? I just observed that there seem to be an awful lot of them now with more popping up all the time. I just finished Return of the Crimson Guard, so there's that. But more relevantly to Karsa, in a world with many super characters, it's struck me as odd that after we're told how powerful they are, compared to Karsa most of them are nothing. He tears through anyone and everyone with ease. I suppose it's at least easier for me to buy that when it's some many thousands of year old ascendant like Rake.

Sure, Karsa's a great warrior from a race of really big dudes though I don't recall any particularly special training that made him such an incredible fighter, just that he grew up in a war-like society where everyone learns how to fight. But hey, I suppose I'm also not a "fan" of a character who's a jackass 99% of the time. His redeeming quality is telling the CG where to stick it and walking away.

Well he shows some fair skill when he fights against other Teblor and the humans on Laederon, but there's no epic duels until after he's been in Raraku for a long time, where he could learn from the likes of Leoman and his accomplished officers...

[Sanctume]

Karsa beats the Seguleh in a spar, when the Seguleh did not even bother sparing anyone else.

From previous readings of the 3 Seguleh with Tool and Envy, the Seguleh don't speak much, but can read movements.

I think Tool and fought or sparred a few times, and then Tool mentioned it was hard to use just the flat of the sword for Mok's attention to want to challenge him--but Envy prevented it. After that, the 2 lesser rank Seguleh did not challenge Tool anymore, because they defer to the superior challenger, I conclude.

So, when the Seguleh accepted the spar with Karsa, I am assuming that the Seguleh sees Karsa as a worthy challenger. So, upon the Seguleh's defeat, Karsa is superior (in rank) thus earns the right to challenge Rhulad.

As for the mention of Rhulad's challengers, the fights did not happen as planned. Too many things happening already: riots, invasion, and Icarium's quake. It's conceivable that the Chancellor's men made their version for Rhulad's satisfaction or at least focus on the Karsa fight.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Sanctume, on 06 January 2010 - 12:04 AM, said:

Karsa beats the Seguleh in a spar, when the Seguleh did not even bother sparing anyone else.

From previous readings of the 3 Seguleh with Tool and Envy, the Seguleh don't speak much, but can read movements.

I think Tool and fought or sparred a few times, and then Tool mentioned it was hard to use just the flat of the sword for Mok's attention to want to challenge him--but Envy prevented it. After that, the 2 lesser rank Seguleh did not challenge Tool anymore, because they defer to the superior challenger, I conclude.

So, when the Seguleh accepted the spar with Karsa, I am assuming that the Seguleh sees Karsa as a worthy challenger. So, upon the Seguleh's defeat, Karsa is superior (in rank) thus earns the right to challenge Rhulad.

As for the mention of Rhulad's challengers, the fights did not happen as planned. Too many things happening already: riots, invasion, and Icarium's quake. It's conceivable that the Chancellor's men made their version for Rhulad's satisfaction or at least focus on the Karsa fight.

The reason the Seguleh 11th (or 12th?) never fought anyone before Karsa is because she never felt threatened by anyone before Karsa. And as to the notions of Karsa beating her so easily that some ppl didn't like. They fought with two distinctly different styles. Seguleh rely on speed and skill and try to dismantle opponents by striking at the most vulnerable places. Karsa has a 7 foot sword made of flint, he is going to rely on brute force for the most part. So why are people surprised that this wasn't an epic duel that lasted 5 hours? Two styles so contrasting could only logically lead to a quick ending.

About the reading movements thing. It is actually Tool that does that about Mok. He tells Toc that he can tell by the grace of Mok's movements and how light his footsteps are that he is a formidable opponent. He doesn't decide to challenge Mok until Tool sees him dismantle the K'ell hunter. Mok first takes notice of Tool after Tool duels the second best of them (I've forgotten his name) and says that he only used the flat of his blade because he didn't want to kill the Seguleh. The lesser two Seguleh defer because Tool has already pwned them both.

[Avious]

To the Karsa debate: I believe that he gains strength and speed from the train of souls he holds in his shadow. Regardless of willpower a 8 foot giant with a 8 foot sword should not be able to move at the same speed as a much smaller opponent with a smaller sword. Of course this is just an assumption that I've made and is very likely not true.

As for the ranking debate, can someone show the quote where it states that the 1st Seguleh is without a mark on his mask? I can't remember where it says that, and if it doesn't whos to say that there is not a 0th Seguleh?

[End of Disc One]

Avious, on 09 April 2010 - 01:38 AM, said:

To the Karsa debate: I believe that he gains strength and speed from the train of souls he holds in his shadow.

This. It's something I've always thought that no one ever mentions in Ho'd Wins. It explains how he's gotten so much better since the beginning of HoC.

[Aptorian]

That would be a sad argument, since he used - all? - of them in his portal jumping trick into the CGs realm. Essentially destroying them I guess.

[worry]

Yah, I agree with Apt there. I think Karsa's something of a savant among the Teblor, and not just in combat. He very quickly processes the world around him--in terms of it being largely new to him, and his ability to take it in and let it expand his worldview. We don't get to see that many examples of his people, but he definitely seems exceptional by any standards. So he has natural aptitude. Absolute willpower. He's consistently under-estimated by others. And there's surely something special in terms of magic (to be generic) about him. But I think it's something akin to earthier/shamanic magic (like Tanno magic since it's clearly not the kind of warren that blood oil would nullify). I tend to agree that the trail of souls isn't the primary source of that power...their chaining is of the CG, who Karsa rejects.

[Garak]

In Bonehunters, I think, someone said that some Teblor could become a Warren unto themselves. Obviously it was a reference to Karsa and that would explain a lot about him. Sadly I can't remember who said it, or when (and searching Bonehunters for one bloody sentence is not something I have the patience for).

Quote

can someone show the quote where it states that the 1st Seguleh is without a mark on his mask? I can't remember where it says that, and if it doesn't whos to say that there is not a 0th Seguleh?

The less marks on their masks, the higher in rank. Also the First has been mentioned. Also saying 0th rank makes no sense since that would make you a nobody. Why not -1st rank while we're at it? Because it's just silly.

This post has been edited by Garak: 09 April 2010 - 12:34 PM

[End of Disc One]

Aptorian, on 09 April 2010 - 06:54 AM, said:

That would be a sad argument, since he used - all? - of them in his portal jumping trick into the CGs realm. Essentially destroying them I guess.

How did Apsalar retain her godlike abilities after Cotillion left her?