[Sheve]

english is not my first language, tho i can read and understand english as good as my normal language i cant write in it very good, so i hope you oversee that and try to focus on the point of waht i am trying to say instead.

Im talking pure "fighting" power now

So we have seen kallor fight 3 times in the series.

1: vs the marines and WJ(MOI)

2: vs Traveller(who everybody should know is dassem ultor)(RoTCG)

3: vs Spinnoch durav(sp)(TTH)

but we "heard" kallor say he killed a jaghut or 2 and dragons(TTH), he could be lying or it could be as Brood says in MOI he only picks fights he can win.
He does "flee" from gothos, who could be one of the most powerfull creaters in the world.
so
1 he killed the 2 marines pretty simply, had some trubble with WJ won couse he step on a spear and WJ lunged and break his leg.

2 Travller really buttfucked him in everyway possible.
as i read the fight.
First parry,
Secundparry,
sword sticking out of kallors back,
kallors running lika a small girl after finding out dassem ultors name.

noone in the right mind kan read that as kallor even had a chance.
paragraf(If Wj used to spar with Dassem and Dassem wohuld take a while to get past him, whould a "while" be more then 2-3 sowrd strickes?

3 he fights Spinnock durav(sp)
He fights spinnock for what should be about 8hs(cant read it now but he says when i litt thetorch it was sunset or something)


The point about this post was that some on this bord think that kallor is the most badassmotherfudcker inte the world.

i dont belive so, he is powerful but he just falls behind the a players of the world.
If he uses his wisdom and and experiance he will most of the time be there to kill a more powerful creature when its hurt.

I think that the list that brood gives in MOI is a preatty good indication of where kallor is.

He should rank below the really powerfull onles in the malazan world
Anomander Rake(prolly the best swordsman when he lived)
Dassem Ultod(not far after and now is prolly the best)
seguleh first(Dont know how good he is).
warlod brood(is just so powerfull that he could kill everything if he wanted. and he placed himself on the list)
graymane(im unsure about him, sure in RoTCG he remarks about that he could have used the word on skinner, but still for brood to even mension him is impressiv)

thats just the list that brood gives.
im sure theres lots more thats on the same lvl
Ossrc
elder gods.(Draconus, kilmandaros)
silchas ruin.
eres al.

this is just my thought on kallor. i think that allot of readers rank him to high just cous " i killed a jaghut" wohooi do so did a namless KCCM in HoC

all thoughts wellkome.
Oh 1 post(sober that is)

but while we are at it what happend to the galayn lord in GOTM?
we know Peal stayed alive to TTH(with huge amount of extra wight) but what happend to the gaylan lord who was rakes match "in sice and power" he should be still there but there is no ones saying anything about him.

This post has been edited by Sheve: 07 November 2008 - 08:42 PM

[Grief]

Well, I wouldnt put Draconus on quite the same level as Rake, simply for the reason that Rake beat him.
Silchas we know isnt close to rake, osric etc.
Osric is probably the closest to Rake in sheer power that we know, because draconus goes for him only when weakened, and doesnt manage to catch him. Osric seems just below rake.
In swordsmanship I would agree dassem is one of the best left, along with the first who we dont know of, brys etc.

Oh, and generally, people dont see kallor as quite as godly as you think.
Badass, yes. You can be badass without being powerful.

As for power, well if he fought Rake, Graymane, Brood, etc, everyones pretty certain with how owned he would get.

As to the galayn lord, he is there we presume, as he isnt mentioned as escaping.
Although I doubt he is actually rakes power. Size, yes. So are lots of people. But I doubt he is power, just from what we see of rake. I think it meanas power as in physical strength, or something. Or perhaps just a GotMism.
I mean, how the hell would tay capture something that powerful? He survives Rake, when Rake is trying to defend a whole mountain, against Tayschreen, and the other mages. I doubt he could capture someone of that power, unless they were stupid as hell etc.

Another interesting point about the Galayn lord, is that he's draconic soletaken, meaning either he's old enough to have drank tiams blood, or is descended from someone who has.

[Sheve]

Ok this could be confusing but i just could not get the reply and my next perply to work together, so if anyone have any tips on how to work multiple quotes in to the smae post GIFE!


Well, I wouldnt put Draconus on quite the same level as Rake, simply for the reason that Rake beat him.
!!!!noone know how rake killed him with his own weapon, but i never said anythin about that?!!!


Silchas we know isnt close to rake, osric etc.
!!!we know silchas drank deeper of tiams blood then anyone we dont know his power.!!!

Osric is probably the closest to Rake in sheer power that we know, because draconus goes for him only when weakened, and doesnt manage to catch him. Osric seems just below rake.
!!!yes osserc is prolly the closest to rake but rake "cant" (wont) kill him. still thats nothin i really am trying to adress.!!!


In swordsmanship I would agree dassem is one of the best left, along with the first who we dont know of, brys etc.
Oh, and generally, people dont see kallor as quite as godly as you think.
Badass, yes. You can be badass without being powerful.
As for power, well if he fought Rake, Graymane, Brood, etc, everyones pretty certain with how owned he would get.
!!!!what i have read on this forum they seem to think kallor is way above what he should be!!!

As to the galayn lord, he is there we presume, as he isnt mentioned as escaping.
!!!yea but i just find it strange that a deamon that gets 1 line and a deamon that gets 2 pages is treated so diffrent, when the more powerfull one gets nothing after.!!!

Although I doubt he is actually rakes power. Size, yes. So are lots of people. But I doubt he is power, just from what we see of rake. I think it meanas power as in physical strength, or something. Or perhaps just a GotMism.
I mean, how the hell would tay capture something that powerful? He survives Rake, when Rake is trying to defend a whole mountain, against Tayschreen, and the other mages. I doubt he could capture someone of that power, unless they were stupid as hell etc.
!!!and in GoTM RAke clearly says that the gaylin lord is his match in sice and power!!!
!!!Tay is one of the most powerful mages in the world(human that is,)!!!'
!!! and if we want to go deeper in RotCG the Awoved maged says that tay could hold them off without problems, but in TTH Rake have to go hunting and have huge fight with cowl.)

Another interesting point about the Galayn lord, is that he's draconic soletaken, meaning either he's old enough to have drank tiams blood, or is descended from someone who has.
!!!thats throu but thats thinking that everysoletaken has drunk from tiam withc we know is not true
there is that tlan imass in MOI thats says he in the "mat"(?) of tiam or something

This post has been edited by Sheve: 07 November 2008 - 09:13 PM

[Sheve]

The best example right now of the kallor thing is

http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...showtopic=10737

[Grief]

Mainly everyone accepts kallors level in that thread.
Except Apt, who is a gigantic Kallor fanboy .

Kallor is good. No denying it.
But hes not the best.
Id have to say WJ, for example, in a straight fight, would win.

Dassem took quite some time to get past WJs guard.
He takes like 3 blows to be past kallors.

Anyway, thats off-topic, and if people want to debate the whole kallor/Who'd win thing kindly take it elsewhere, so I dont have to split up threads etc.

Anyway.

There are people who rate kallor very highly. He is pretty impressive. But the whole fact of his survival against Dassem etc, id have to say, sheds a whole new light on his tales of who he pwnd.
If the curses, or whatever, stop him dying as easily, then ofc he has more chance of beating them.

Personally, I dont rate kallor massively highly, power-wise.
As a character, I like him.
But I can easily name a bunch of people who could best him, just off the top of my head.
Therefore, he's not one of those awesome people, who you can only think of like 1 or 2 people who come close.

Kallors whole awesomeness thing comes from his abililty to scheme, and chose his fights. This is probably why he has survived, simply by avoiding anyone who would kill him.

[Sheve]

Grief, on Nov 7 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

Mainly everyone accepts kallors level in that thread.
Except Apt, who is a gigantic Kallor fanboy .

Kallor is good. No denying it.
But hes not the best.
Id have to say WJ, for example, in a straight fight, would win.

Dassem took quite some time to get past WJs guard.
He takes like 3 blows to be past kallors.

Anyway, thats off-topic, and if people want to debate the whole kallor/Who'd win thing kindly take it elsewhere, so I dont have to split up threads etc.

Anyway.

There are people who rate kallor very highly. He is pretty impressive. But the whole fact of his survival against Dassem etc, id have to say, sheds a whole new light on his tales of who he pwnd.
If the curses, or whatever, stop him dying as easily, then ofc he has more chance of beating them.

Personally, I dont rate kallor massively highly, power-wise.
As a character, I like him.
But I can easily name a bunch of people who could best him, just off the top of my head.
Therefore, he's not one of those awesome people, who you can only think of like 1 or 2 people who come close.

Kallors whole awesomeness thing comes from his abililty to scheme, and chose his fights. This is probably why he has survived, simply by avoiding anyone who would kill him.

have to disagree i love Wj, but i think that Kallor whould win(MOI) in TTH Who knows?
I just had the feeling from what i have been reading on this forum that kallor was to highly rated.
as you say his skill is in planning and striking when he can win.
But i think allot of peapoles wiew is from MOI, when he says i haven lost in 100.000 years and i killd a jaghut or 2(TTH).

I love kallor and the ide of kallor but i hate that peapole give him to mutch power.

This post has been edited by Sheve: 07 November 2008 - 09:45 PM

[Grief]

Yeah.
I have to agree with what Brood says though, not losing in 100k years could just be because he picks his fights well.

I mean, we dont know the circumstances.
He could have just offed an already dying jaghut etc.

For example, the dragons chained in shadow probably havent lost a fight in that time, if not more, either.
Because they havent been able to fight anyone.

Not having lost in 100,00 years, while impressive, is unreliable, especially seeing how he avoids conflict.

[Sheve]

precisly.

Kallor is a very powerfull creature but he is prolly a coward.

But whould he have said "give me a reason to not kill you" to nimoander and Co if he known what they where

and whould he be able to kill them?
We know that niomader and Co is badass they just dont want to be.

[Vengeance]

I would also like to point out that in MOI Brood said that he (Kallor) had never faced any of the truly great swordsmen i.e. Dassem, the Segulah first or Rake. Now is Kallor good yeah he is but we know that he isn't at Dassem's or Rakes level. I wouldn't even put him at Karsa's (mainly because of Karsa's strength). In terms of overall power and not just sword play. I have to say that someone who defied the elder gods and lived while cursing them is someone that is pretty bad ass. The fact that he was able to conquer an entire continent is saying that he is both smart and ruthless. I would put Kallor in the top echelon of characters...

[Padnul]

I think Kallor is a bit tougher then you give him credit. I mean TtH we see him dispose of a soletaken Andii in like a heartbeat. Something like that can't be taken lightly, plus he also bests the number two Andii in a swordfight. So I think he needs to be placed right beside the top players.
That he hasn't fought them isn't because of cowardry, more like they didn't stand in his way. It ain't like he wants to cross the globe fighting all the major bad asses.
All the fights he starts he starts because he sees the need to do so. That's probably why he stepped away from the fight with Dassem, he already did what he came for (kill that ancient toblakai thingy).
That he doesn't want to risk his live in a fight with the big players is just the smart thing to do.

[Grief]

I wouldnt say he "bests" spinnock as such.
Spinnock isnt even trying to hit him, so its not exactly a fight, plus if you look at kallors thoughts/speaking after the fight.

Taking down Orfantal is fairly impressive, although orfantal doesnt rank highly in power. Soletaken andii yes. Massively powerful? No.

Kallor is fairly tough, but he isnt up there with the most powerful. Not even close, really.
Brood, Dassem, Rake, Osric, most EGs, all would take him down with fair ease.

He survives about 10 seconds in a fight with dassem.

As to the curses, he had millions of sacrifices.
And the EGs did it without any.

That shows the power difference, straight there.

As a character, however, he is great.

I also think his curse, along with help from the CG, helps keep him alive, for example from Dassem, Tayschrenn etc.

As for empire, well, anyone with a big enough army can do that.
I doubt he ran the whole empire himself.

[Padnul]

Grief, on Nov 8 2008, 04:52 PM, said:

I wouldnt say he "bests" spinnock as such.
Spinnock isnt even trying to hit him, so its not exactly a fight, plus if you look at kallors thoughts/speaking after the fight.

Taking down Orfantal is fairly impressive, although orfantal doesnt rank highly in power. Soletaken andii yes. Massively powerful? No.

Kallor is fairly tough, but he isnt up there with the most powerful. Not even close, really.
Brood, Dassem, Rake, Osric, most EGs, all would take him down with fair ease.

He survives about 10 seconds in a fight with dassem.

Rake, Osric I would indeed place above Kallor. Brood i'm not sure, since we haven't seen him perform apart from one swing which in the end doesn't succeed, Kruppe's still standing unharmed after all. EG's i'm also not so sure. Sure some of em would whoop his ass (Killi for example) but there are still lots of unknowns about other ones. We've seen many gods who don't rely on their fighting prowess.
Dassem i'm not sure about either which of the two would come out atop, in RotCG he doesn't commit himself to the fight, sure Dassem draws first blood, but we don't see Kallor go into his frenzy as we seen with Spinnock.

But other then that Kallor also says in one of the books (I think TtH) that he's slain Eleint and Soletaken. Taking down a Eleint rates high up the list of powerfull.

And still even if there are about 5 to 10 persons who can take him down that would still place him in the upper echelons. I don't think he is the most powerfull around but he is certainly contesting for a top 10 place of known and active persons/beings.

Besides I don't think we've seen the full extent of his prowess. He's never been in a situation where he places his live on the line, as was already said, he picks his fights with care.

This post has been edited by Padnul: 08 November 2008 - 05:44 PM

[Grief]

Yeah, but even the gods who dont realy on fighting prowess would kill him. K'rul, Mael etc. Either could magick him to death with hardly any effort.
Pretty sure dassem would beat him, Brood is a good judge, I believe, and even if he wasnt in a frenzy against dassem, he still wasnt exactly trying to be stabbed.

Pretty sure Brood could win against him.
It tooks an EGs intervention to stop him killing Kruppe.

[Vengeance]

Grief, on Nov 8 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

Yeah, but even the gods who dont realy on fighting prowess would kill him. K'rul, Mael etc. Either could magick him to death with hardly any effort.
Pretty sure dassem would beat him, Brood is a good judge, I believe, and even if he wasnt in a frenzy against dassem, he still wasnt exactly trying to be stabbed.

Pretty sure Brood could win against him.
It tooks an EGs intervention to stop him killing Kruppe.

That is debate able and has been. I personally don't think that there was any intervention. Because K'rul didn't even have enough power at the time to keep Harlo alive. He was only just returned and I don't think he had enough strength to ward off a blow from Brood. I think that Kruppe was able to defect that blow on his own with out any help..

[Grief]

Possible, but then again, would he have to have brute strength. From what we know of kruppe, he deserves to be called the eel.
Its possible he just re-directed the force, say, into the ground.
Skillful magic, as opposed to brute force.

But then, Keruli calls himself a very limited manifestation.

Anyway, I reckon Brood would kill Kallor, from whats been described of him.

[Tapper]

Kallor is good. Very good. Brood mentions that Kallor hasn't faced Dassem, Rake, himself, the Seguleh First. Of that list, only the First is mortal (since Dassem is a god and Mortal Sword before that) and only the First has no magical powers/ heritage (that we know of). Rake and Brood both carry magical weapons, as well.
They don't know about Brys, of course, but I guess every generation has its talents: see for Dassem facing the Protector in Knight of Knives.

So, Kallor is no god. He has however made a living as a soldier/general/mercenary/ lonely bastard on the road for 100.000 years. He's been advertising himself as The High King for most of that time. His arrogance is legendary, as is his need to meddle, and his habit of calling himself the equal of anyone. You cannot do that for as long as he lives without upsetting other great swordsmen, and ending up fighting them.

He may have lost to Whiskeyjack in MoI. He may also have been able to risk getting impaled and kill WJ. Who knows? He was healed by the Crippled God's magic elsewhere, too. And knowing you'll be healed will make you less careful, and for Kallor, speed was of the essence in that situation. Point here is, did Kallor take the sensible approach to a fight, or did he press, trusting in healing and recovery by the CG? If he pressed, he took risks he normally wouldn't take, and then WJ is not necessarily Kallor's better.

Also, Dassem in NoK is distinctly different from the Dassem in RotCG, I'd say: more god, less mortal sword of Hood/ First sword of the empire. Hence Kallor getting impaled that fast.

I'd rate Kallor as one of the very best humans still alive and kicking. The argument that he only picks fights he can win is... rather stupid. Firstly because he must have made some magnificent enemies during his lifespan, and still lives. That alone is a proof of quality. Secondly, because no strategist picks a fight he cannot ever win, so Kallor is sensible, instead of a coward.

[Lisheo]

Bear in mind for a deal of that time he was allied to Caladan Brood and Rake, who would make excellent protectors. No one wants to mess with Rake or Brood, no one. Discourages his most potent and lore-knowing enemies from messing with him, on the off-chance that Rake/Brood step in.
Dassem is a God. We cannot compare him to an aged immortal(different things entirely). I think however that Kallor probably could get taken out by, say, Brys, because he is an incredible swordsman, and the First(do we know for a fact he is mortal?) because he's the Champion of the Segulah. Whiskeyjack was not on the same league as Dassem. Dassem could have killed him in a straight fight, the only thing about WJ is he was able to defend himself better than some. Not attack. Not press Dassem. Just survive for a few moments more.
That said, Kallor could probably have killed WJ in any cricumstances. Kallor has had millenia of experience. There ain't much in a fight that he hasn't seen.

[Grief]

WJ held Dassem longer than Kallor.
Proabably by a bit, as it was "some time" or something before Dassem passsed his guard.
Sure, he probably improved due to godhood, but he was already an incredibly good swordsman, so I doubt he improved vastly.
Look, for example, at cotillion. Yes, he's improved as a god. He was still deadly beforehand.

Millenia of experience, while an advantage, isnt a great one.

It doesnt help kallor against Dassem.
It doesnt help Draconus against Rake.

Experience, while an advantage, doesnt stop you being beaten by someone who is a better swordsman.
Now, I reckon WJ/Kallor are very close, but I lean towards WJ.

Although now he's back, perhaps we'll get a re-match, under fairer circumstances. It would be interesting.

[Abyss]

Strictly speaking, never getting into a fight you are not sure you can win is just sound strategy. It's not that Kallor is better than everyone, it's just that he is careful with actions that might end with his death or 'death' as the case may be.

That said, in 100k years, it seems unlikely that in the course of fighting dragons, jaghut, ascendants and what have you he's never actually gone up against someone who was a better fighter. I would just expect that given that situation, he would cheat.

- Abyss, ...and btw the answer is Wolverine.

[Tapper]

Abyss, on Nov 10 2008, 07:22 PM, said:

Strictly speaking, never getting into a fight you are not sure you can win is just sound strategy. It's not that Kallor is better than everyone, it's just that he is careful with actions that might end with his death or 'death' as the case may be.

That said, in 100k years, it seems unlikely that in the course of fighting dragons, jaghut, ascendants and what have you he's never actually gone up against someone who was a better fighter. I would just expect that given that situation, he would cheat.

- Abyss, ...and btw the answer is Wolverine.

Heh, that's the spot on version of what I meant. I would donate brains, but since I'm clueless, I doubt it will improve you. Have virtual rep instead.

Tapper, notes that unless you want to do some wordplay I don't recognize in your sig, it's Vuitton