[foolio]

why did whither(the shade) want to kill Udinaas at the end? I dont really understand if they wanted him dead why they didnt kill him long before that. I mean its not like he isnt verbally abusing everyone in ear shot for the long journey, if I was planning on killing him, ie Clip and Whither, I would have done it long ago. Also why did they tolerate Fear being with them. They seem to have had his demise planned as well. What purpose did it serve to take Fear and Udinaas along?

[Aptorian]

Short answer, it gave the audience something to listen to while the team took the long trek through the mountains, and it made the convergence more exciting. And yes, it was pointless, just like the fact that they spent YEARS walking back and forth in the foothills of the mountain pass before actually going to find Scabby, or the fact that Ruin didn't just fly straight for Scabby in dragon form.

Long answer, with conveluted explanations that only partially make sense - Udinass needed taking out in the end because the Andii weren't sure where they had him or what he was now capable of. They weren't sure that he hadn't become a pawn of Shethata Lore... or was that Menandore? ... or the cult of the Errant. He might be used as a weapon against Ruin at the convergence. He was a wildcard and you don't take that kind with you when you fear they'll stab you in the back.

Fear was tolerated because he had rebelled against the Edur and was the guardian of the Pedac. Ruin accepted Fear because he interested him I think, and because there was something honorable about a mrtal seeking his god. Even if Ruin was going to crush that hope. Also another sword is not a bad thing when you're travelling in the country side and trying to weather the path to the Refuge of the Imass.

[Jude]

They might have only decided to get rid of fear and Udinaas at the end. hell we don't know much about what was going on in Ruin's head. He might even have had this big conflicting thing going on where he respected Fear and wanted to keep him alive but decided, post-clip joining, that he needed to go because he wouldn't stand for Scab's soul going down.

He may have tolerated Udinaas because the guy seemed like he was going through some serious shit with powerful players. Might as well keep him around for as long as possible to find out where he stands and how much of a threat he is/how useful he might become before you take him out as well.

Ofcourse this is just me scrabbling for some sort of half assed explanation. It was most likely because it looked cool on paper for it all to go down at the same time and in front of trull.

[Wampyry]

If I remember correctly, Seren was asked to help Fear escape Letheras by Trull so she agreed
Ruin just went along for the ride. Seren is critical for reasons not stated here - because I can't
remember - and she would not let the group kill Fear.

As to Udinaas, SE made it plain that Kettle - pretty important - was only comfortable in Udinaas company

Needed some animosity to keep a story line going.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 07 November 2008 - 02:35 AM

[Deadpool]

I had a feeling that Ruin kept Udinaas around (as well as to kep Kettle happy) because it allowed him to know Menandore's movements and how close or far she was to intercepting him. As he asks Udinaas before they step through the gate "Is she still with us?"

In my mind Ruin didn't have any inclination on Fear's whereabouts as he knew he could kill him at any time so it didn't matter where the Edur was.

Just a thought.

[Lisheo]

Bear in mind Udinaas also was the one who carried the Wyval that freed Silchas at the end of MT. He probably felt that he couldn't kill him straight off, it would be dishonourable. Also, as said before, Udinaas was being played with by two powers, and that gave Silchas the edge; he was able to keep an eye on them.
Fear was kept alive because I think Silchas may have needed a modern Tiste perspective on that incredibly messed up continent. He didn't know what was what, and Fear did.

[foolio]

one more question, was Ruin killing kettle really a dastardly deed? Was it as cold and heartless as it seemed or was it the right thing to do? I mean he had to save the Azath right?

[Lisheo]

It had to be done, but it was dastardly. She was only a child who was only beginning to "live" really.

[redJAKO]

foolio, on Nov 7 2008, 01:51 PM, said:

<br />one more question, was Ruin killing kettle really a dastardly deed? Was it as cold and heartless as it seemed or was it the right thing to do? I mean he had to save the Azath right?<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Whatever happened to the Forkral Assail (spell?) soul within her? Did I miss something while reading till 4am one night?

[Abyss]

Udinass would have interfered with Ruin's killing Kettle, and as stated above he was an unknown in terms of power - truly, between Menandore and FW/Errant, who knows what he might do or summon - so Ruin had Wither take him out. Whether Wither would (wheeeEeee) have killed him is uncertain, but it certainly looked like that was the plan.

Point being, Wither struck at Udinaas on Ruin's say-so. Ruin is NOT a nice person. At the beginning of RG when Ruin rescues Kettle and Udi, it's Kettle he's there for.

That said, Ruin did not seem to have an issue with Fear. We don't know that Ruin and Clip hadn't planned taking Fear out in advance, but it certainly didn't seem that way - they weren't exactly cuddly. My theory runs that Clip took out Fear on the basis of the old Edur/Andii feud. Fear's people and the Letherii had in fact just wiped out Bluerose. And also Clip is a dick. 'Weapons master ' status aside, Fear was a 'mere' Edur and Silch may have seen him as less of a threat that potentially Udinaas. or maybe he hoped Fear would take out Clip... who knows?

Kettle's soul(s)... i suppose all that really matters is that whatever she was, she made a good vessel to carry the Azath seed. I suspect we may yet see Kettle and Scabby hanging out in the Refugium House as guardians like Raest.

- Abyss, ...will never again complain about friends not getting along...

This post has been edited by Abyss: 10 November 2008 - 02:48 PM

[D'rek]

Additionally, Ruin didn't know about Hedge and Quick Ben, or the T'lan Imass in the Refugium. Knowing full well that there was a chance of the three sisters ganging up on him, he might have foreseen some use for the rest of his party in fighting them or as decoys or what-have-you. And even if Fear were to survive that, Ruin might still have been able and planning to turn Fear's thinking around, but with Trull baring Ruin's path there was no way Fear wouldn't stand with Trull...

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Abyss, on Nov 7 2008, 09:56 PM, said:

That said, Ruin did not seem to have an issue with Fear. We don't know that Ruin and Clip hadn't planned taking Fear out in advance, but it certainly didn't seem that way - they weren't exactly cuddly. My theory runs that Clip took out Fear on the basis of the old Edur/Andii feud.

To me it simply seemed as if Clip decided to kill Fear "at the moment" just to prevent him from stabbing Ruin (not that I believe that Fear would have succeded anyway) although it is possible that he would still have killed him after finding Scabby soul just because he hates Edur.

As for Udinaas I think the main reason was that they didn't want him to try stopping Ruin kill Kettle. I mean: they had just understood that he was a powerful guy

[Excellence]

2 answers: Ruin sensed Menadore close, and her sisters. As you saw, she was occasionally using Udinaas's eyes to spy. And Udi was exhibiting knowledge he should not have known. From the weakest of them, to a clear threat of unknown danger.

Further more, it was reflected by someone the old alliance between Kettle and Ruin of last book over. She helped him out of the House, he protcted her. Ruin promised the House re-seed it. Which he did, with you know who.

Cold bugger. Fiddle gave him good. Lets hear a 21-moranth salute for the old rust beard. Or after Beak's performance, is it whitebeard?

And lets not forget, Wither is Andii. His allegiance is to Ruin. Hisold High Mage of the Sixth Cohort.

[Jude]

Actually, Excellence, you just gave me an idea there. I havent read RG or MT in a while so I don't know how on track this theory is but is it possible that Kettle and Ruin both were planning for Kettle to die so that the Azath would be reseeded? I mean he promised Kettle that he would reseed it, back in MT like you said, and Kettle seemed to have some knowlege that she was going to die in RG, so is it not a possibility that they were both aware of what was going to go down the whole time?

[Excellence]

Hmmm . . . she did have a pov scene where she was watching everyone bicker and snap at each other, and "she knew what was coming."

I thought it was the Forkrul Assail coming out of her, and judicatoring everyone. Could be that she knew she would die.

Spoiler

Yet she squealed when she was flung down and stabbed by Ruin.

[Jude]

this is true. then again.. If I knew I was going to get murdered and then it actually started happening I would squeal too out of instinct. Then again AGAIN... I'm a pussy.

[Excellence]

That was one of the scenes in the series that iced my stomach. I thought, you bast-rd, Ruin. You'll get it, one day... And by Fiddler he did.

[Abyss]

I tend to think Kettle knew what was coming but was still reluctant. In any event, Udinaas wasn't okay with it.

I forget the exact text (anyone, anyone, Vaiski?) but isn't there a ref, just before Clip takes out Fear, to Ruin having yet another Edur pull a blade at his back a la ref to Scabby back in the day?

- Abyss, needs his back scratched...

[Jude]

There indeed WAS, abyss! perhaps Ruin was not the bad guy afterall, and to him, Fear was just as bad as we suspected Ruin to be.

Or maybe Ruin was being racist.

[Aptorian]

Why are you calling Ruin a bad guy? Because he stabbed Kettle? Please, he did what was needed and what he had promised the Azath. Kettle was just a vessel,

Not getting into a moral discussion here, but if Ruin had needed to kill a thousand screaming babies, it would have been worth it to ensure that the Azath secured the Dragongates and the CG didn't get his paws on Scabby's soul.