[Abyss]

Jude, on Nov 12 2008, 03:35 PM, said:

There indeed WAS, abyss! perhaps Ruin was not the bad guy afterall, and to him, Fear was just as bad as we suspected Ruin to be.
...

Not quite - Fear was reacting to seeing Trull confronted by Ruin - he was NOT about to stab Ruin in the back if i recall the internal monologue correctly.

Aptorian, on Nov 12 2008, 03:40 PM, said:

Why are you calling Ruin a bad guy? Because he stabbed Kettle? Please, he did what was needed and what he had promised the Azath. Kettle was just a vessel,

Not getting into a moral discussion here, but if Ruin had needed to kill a thousand screaming babies, it would have been worth it to ensure that the Azath secured the Dragongates and the CG didn't get his paws on Scabby's soul.

Well, that IS the question. Udinaas didn't care about the why, he was just trying to protect Kettle (he had failed at this earlier and she had been raped because of it).

In Ruin's view, whether Kettle was 'alive' or not, he had to kill her to settle his debt to the Azath, and he probably rationalized it as her being just an ambulatory animated seed delivery system. Udi, however, would have seen it the other way - he didn't care what she was, he treated her as a little girl he had to protect.

Y'know, the more i think about it, the more i realize just how much was going on in that confrontation...

- Abyss, ...yes, an ambulatory animated seed delivery system (shut up Apt'

[Jude]

So he was for sure just being racist.

Apt, if you look closely, you'll see quite the contrary to me thinking Ruin was the bad guy. Aside from a little devil's advocate, I've been on his side from the start. He was being a man, and doing what was needed to be done. Sure he was a huge dick all through Reaper's Gale but he still got what needed doing done. The only real BAD guy there was Clip, IMO.

[D'rek]

Jude, on Nov 12 2008, 05:08 PM, said:

So he was for sure just being racist.

Apt, if you look closely, you'll see quite the contrary to me thinking Ruin was the bad guy. Aside from a little devil's advocate, I've been on his side from the start. He was being a man, and doing what was needed to be done. Sure he was a huge dick all through Reaper's Gale but he still got what needed doing done. The only real BAD guy there was Clip, IMO.

That's crap. Silchas could have given his companions the benefit of the doubt and *tried* to explain to them how it was going to go down and why some things needed to happen a certain way, but instead he decided he'd rather have Clip and Wither kill them instead.

[Aptorian]

Fear was only killed because he tried to stab Ruin in the back. He caused his own death. Udinass was attempted killed because the three andii could no longer trust him. He might have been possesed by one of the sisters or the errant.

And if you take a look at Rake, it's not the Andii way to explain yourself. Much better to go around all brooding and silent.

[Urizen]

Why is everybody calling Silchas Ruin evil and lump him in with physcotapth Clip and Wither? The way I read the confrontation It was Wither and Clip, independatly of Ruin, who attacked Udinaas/Fear. Silchas Ruin was only interested in the Finnest. He did what he had to do in killing Kettle. Reseeding the Azath was a good move.
To me Clip might have thought himself a great ally of Ruin and vitally important but when reading all the parts before the final confrontation, I get the impression that Silchas Ruin really don't care all that much for Clip and his antics. Nor did Silchas display any particluar hatred for Fear or the Tiste Edur. It was a personal problem Silchas had with Scabandari. He would have wasted Tiste Andii left and right if they'd put themselves between him and his goals.
Ruin strikes me as someone (much like Anomander Rake) if he wanted Udinaas and Fear dead He would have done the deed himself, probably killing Udinaas/Fear before passing through the Gate.

[Abyss]

Fear pulled his sword because he saw Trull and thought a confrontation was going down - he was NOT about to stab Silch in the back, it just looked that way.

Again, don't have the book handy, but iirc Clip was already going for his garrot BEFORE Fear pulled his sword. He was just opportunistic. And a dick.

Urizen's post makes me wonder tho', whether it was Clip or Ruin who sent Wither to take Udinaas out.

Silchas is NOT evil. He is, however, tempermental and cold-blooded in a do-whatever-i-have-to sort of way.

The wild card in the whole thing was Seren, who took out Wither and made Clip bleed from his skull before Trull shut him down. But note she never struck at Ruin.


- Abyss, ...and btw, Han shot first.

[foolio]

Abyss said "Fear pulled his sword because he saw Trull and thought a confrontation was going down - he was NOT about to stab Silch in the back, it just looked that way."





I thought Fear actually pulled out a dagger and attempted to stab Ruin in the back and missed. I think it says something like "stabbed where he was but he was already moved." Or something like that.

[Aptorian]

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