[Ruse]

 Hood's Path, on Nov 17 2008, 07:08 PM, said:

 Galayn Lord, on Nov 17 2008, 08:59 AM, said:

I'm going to be gone for work most of the day, so I'll just pick up where I left off:

Vote Ruse

He may as well wave a "I'm Cult!" sign around, as far as I'm concerned. He's way too interested in outing the Guard, desparately wants to off the last Ivet even though that person is contained, and is not as important as trying to lynch Cultists - whose numbers can actually increase.

That's not the behaviour of a Townie, because right now, we all should be concerned about trying to take down the Cult's recruiter, if they still live. We've got practically no hope against the Possessed, depending on the mechanics of their return, but, damnit, we can at least beat the Cult and then casually finish off the last Killer (maybe someone still has a vig, or can be given one).

I actually agree with you here. I think Ruse is the cult recruiter as well. If the board decides we should go after cult then I will vote Ruse.

I really don't see how things have changed from Friday, if it wasn't the weekend we would have got 1 of 3 people. Korv, Ruse, Meanas. Unless people's re-reads have brought some new revealations my thoughts are pretty much unchanged from friday. I am going to go look at the Ruse/Korv trains and see if I can pull something out of them...could it be that the Ruse train was tough to pull because there are a lot of Cultists not willing to vote their recruiter? (unsure on mechanics here...typically if you get recruited do you find out who recruited you?)

@ Galain. The last killer is NOT contained. He's been temporarily disabled yes, but how long are you willing to risk him being alive while there's every chance the guard may be recruited? Also I am NOT trying to out the guard. My whole plan was to give the guard some way of signalling us (ie giving meaning to his silence) so that he wouldnt have to out himself. Granted it only works if Meanas is the killer, but like I (and several other people have said) an outed guard would be preferrable to a free killer.

@ HP and everyone else. You know what, I'm not going to defend myself anymore. Everyone seems to have decided I'm the cult leader because of one pretty much irrelevant comment and for trying to actually help win this game, rather than jumping into the game once a day to cast a vote and bugger off, which is what half the players have been doing. The cult is probably probably laughing their asses off at this point, since everyone's decided I'm cult, noone else is looking for them, apart from (ironically enough) the person most likely to be the killer.

[Shadow]

 Hood's Path, on Nov 17 2008, 12:20 PM, said:

Shadow are you inclined to go Ivet or Cult? Why?

Cult, since I feel we have Meanas pegged and can let him hanging there for another day. Risky, of course, but we can. Moreso, the last Ivet will be unable to kill if that means that the game will go to the cult.
If anyone receives a vig, I'd try to poke a hole in that one guy tonight though.

Cult is creeping up on us, and we just can't let them convert more and more people for, in a short while, accusing one of them of being cult/ changing style needs to convince all the townies before we get a lynch... 1 of us town who doesn't want the lynch and we may not be able to get the target and let a cultist roam free.

Of course, this is wishful thinking as we just can't lynch cultist or Ivet at will.

A point against Ruse: he was the first to say: 'woow, a cultist, original or recruit? I think original, since his posting style hasn't changed!' in other words: possibly trying his hand at leading us to jump to conclusions.

edit: adding the R in risky.

This post has been edited by Shadow: 17 November 2008 - 05:37 PM

[Shadow]

 Meanas, on Nov 17 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, 07:25 PM, said:

Now, I agree that getting cult is important, and more important than lynching the last Ivet. I'm willing to give Ruse a shot (for the head), partly since I felt symped by him on the night I vigged Omtose, it could have been early distancing there... we'll never know since Omtose wasn't brought up for a vote.

However, I think for some reason or other (in other words, gutfeeling and guesswork based on nothing at all) that possessions are directly tied to Ivet killing people.
Hence, I would prefer to not let the Ivet (Meanas) roam free again, and would suggest that we try to fit him a noose him tomorrow.

So you are saying that the Ivets get a kill and possess people? Or am I missing something here?

I say that the Ivet might facilitate the possession. Not that they decide who comes down or is possessed, but just open up the opportunity for it, and it might well be signalled by a red light in the story. But I might also be jumping to conclusions and horribly wrong. I don't see it triggering on a lynch, as that is town's means to rid of people. Having a special torturer also seems weird. Best tie it to another factions victory condition: that of a faction that wins through killing and thus can kill the possessed as well, and with Quinn probably benefiting from being possessed, the Ivet seem the likely trigger.

But that's just me guessing.

[Hood's Path]

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

 Hood's Path, on Nov 17 2008, 12:20 PM, said:

Shadow are you inclined to go Ivet or Cult? Why?

A point against Ruse: he was the first to say: 'woow, a cultist, original or recruit? I think original, since his posting style hasn't changed!' in other words: possibly trying his hand at leading us to jump to conclusions.

edit: adding the R in risky.

Also, why would your post style change...its not like you are possesed. Your style would remain the same, your goals/winning conditions would be the only thing shifted

[Shadow]

 Hood's Path, on Nov 17 2008, 12:40 PM, said:

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

 Hood's Path, on Nov 17 2008, 12:20 PM, said:

Shadow are you inclined to go Ivet or Cult? Why?

A point against Ruse: he was the first to say: 'woow, a cultist, original or recruit? I think original, since his posting style hasn't changed!' in other words: possibly trying his hand at leading us to jump to conclusions.

edit: adding the R in risky.

Also, why would your post style change...its not like you are possesed. Your style would remain the same, your goals/winning conditions would be the only thing shifted

Yup.

Vote Ruse

EDIT: note: I'm paraphrasing that sentence. will search for the exact quote.

This post has been edited by Shadow: 17 November 2008 - 05:43 PM

[Ruse]

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, 07:40 PM, said:

 Meanas, on Nov 17 2008, 12:33 PM, said:

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, 07:25 PM, said:

Now, I agree that getting cult is important, and more important than lynching the last Ivet. I'm willing to give Ruse a shot (for the head), partly since I felt symped by him on the night I vigged Omtose, it could have been early distancing there... we'll never know since Omtose wasn't brought up for a vote.

However, I think for some reason or other (in other words, gutfeeling and guesswork based on nothing at all) that possessions are directly tied to Ivet killing people.
Hence, I would prefer to not let the Ivet (Meanas) roam free again, and would suggest that we try to fit him a noose him tomorrow.

So you are saying that the Ivets get a kill and possess people? Or am I missing something here?

I say that the Ivet might facilitate the possession. Not that they decide who comes down or is possessed, but just open up the opportunity for it, and it might well be signalled by a red light in the story. But I might also be jumping to conclusions and horribly wrong. I don't see it triggering on a lynch, as that is town's means to rid of people. Having a special torturer also seems weird. Best tie it to another factions victory condition: that of a faction that wins through killing and thus can kill the possessed as well, and with Quinn probably benefiting from being possessed, the Ivet seem the likely trigger.

But that's just me guessing.

It makes sense and similar stuff has been put forward before. Personally, I think knocking of Quinn's BP allowed the first ghost into the game. After that I'm not sure if the Ivet had anything to do with the dead, or if the possessed player is then somehow able to bring people back from the beyond (PS did say that the possessed have their own abilities).

[Shadow]

 Ruse, on Nov 13 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

A cultist, nice. What are the opinions? Original member or recruit? I dont think his playstyle changed over the course of the game, which is slightly indicative of being an original member, but I'm probably just being hopeful here.

This is the one I meant. So not post style but playstyle.

[Meanas]

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, said:

I say that the Ivet might facilitate the possession. Not that they decide who comes down or is possessed, but just open up the opportunity for it, and it might well be signalled by a red light in the story. But I might also be jumping to conclusions and horribly wrong. I don't see it triggering on a lynch, as that is town's means to rid of people. Having a special torturer also seems weird. Best tie it to another factions victory condition: that of a faction that wins through killing and thus can kill the possessed as well, and with Quinn probably benefiting from being possessed, the Ivet seem the likely trigger.

But that's just me guessing.

I do not believe it is lynch triggered either, I just think that Rashan may have been Quinn and our attempt to lynch him triggered the possession mechanic.

As to your theory on the Ivets are you saying that their kill targets are instead possessed then?

Edit: Cross post

This post has been edited by Meanas: 17 November 2008 - 05:48 PM

[Shadow]

 Meanas, on Nov 17 2008, 12:47 PM, said:

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, said:

I say that the Ivet might facilitate the possession. Not that they decide who comes down or is possessed, but just open up the opportunity for it, and it might well be signalled by a red light in the story. But I might also be jumping to conclusions and horribly wrong. I don't see it triggering on a lynch, as that is town's means to rid of people. Having a special torturer also seems weird. Best tie it to another factions victory condition: that of a faction that wins through killing and thus can kill the possessed as well, and with Quinn probably benefiting from being possessed, the Ivet seem the likely trigger.

But that's just me guessing.

I do not believe it is lynch triggered either, I just think that Rashan may have been Quinn and our attempt to lynch him triggered the possession mechanic.

As to your theory on the Ivets are you saying that their kill targets are instead possessed then?

Edit: Cross post

That would not make sense, since the Ivet then know who is possessed, putting them one step ahead. I think they kill someone, who dies. See night 1 and 2. At the same time, a possessed comes into the game in a wholly different alt. Now, probably, the first possession was on Quinn to power him up, so we got rid of that one.

But as said, I'm speculating.

[Ruse]

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

 Ruse, on Nov 13 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

A cultist, nice. What are the opinions? Original member or recruit? I dont think his playstyle changed over the course of the game, which is slightly indicative of being an original member, but I'm probably just being hopeful here.

This is the one I meant. So not post style but playstyle.

Hooray, now everything I've said the whole game is going to be brought up and giving a scummy twist, so when I turn up inno, everyone will feel less guilty and say things like 'but then why was he so suspicious?'

Because yes, agreeing that someone seems scummy, that's obviously distancing, couldnt possibly be an opinion based on the same things that caused that to be pointed out in the first place. Trying to figure out how the scum mechanics work, why that can only be an attempt to lead people astray, no way he was genuinely trying to figure out what was going on and share the little information he had without giving himself away. Look, he's been helpful and friendly from the beginning of the game, he must be the original cult, despite the fact that he's one of the people who suggested the concept in the first place.

[Hood's Path]

Allright Ruse, Fair enough. I attempt to make a case on my other Cult leader possibility. Galain

Let me say this first, I believe Galain is a very strong player and as such what I am about to propose is not out of the realm of possibility:

First he tries to make a day 1 case against Fener rather weak but it is day 1.

 Fener, on Nov 11 2008, 04:25 AM, said:

 Galain, on Nov 11 2008, 12:05 PM, said:

I'm going to make a mini-case on Fener. On day 1, there's a tendency for the scum to play a little too friendly because it's a tough role to have.

There are exceptions, of course, but not that many, or most probably the aggressive scum is a symp.

Look at Fener's posts:

 Fener, on Nov 10 2008, 01:39 PM, said:

That book seems really cool. Definitely gonna read it at some point.

 Fener, on Nov 10 2008, 07:37 PM, said:

Right now I feel the need to actually read the book before even playing, there's too much I am confused about, but I assume I will have to rely on you guys that know stuff about the story.
I am wondering about winning conditions for the cult etc. Do we go after the killers or the cult first?

 Fener, on Nov 10 2008, 09:00 PM, said:

I also am of the opinion that we can't really worry about the specifics until something actually happens. We need to decide who to go after first - it's not obvious to me who we should go after first, killers or cult.

 Fener, on Nov 10 2008, 09:05 PM, said:

Wow Meanas, that is really creepy - I definitely want to read that book now.

All friendly, asks questions instead of expressing opinions.

 Fener, on Nov 10 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

It is always a problem with transferring a work of fiction into a mafia game - every detail is not guaranteed to end up on the game rules. We can only assume so much, the rest we have to try to figure out as we go along. My policy is that we lynch if we get a worthy lynch target, and day 1 that is always a sacrifice in the sense that it's the only way to get information, but on the other hand we don't want to push too hard in case it backfires. On day1 there's always pros and cons both, whatever you do imo.

Not sure what he means by the "backfire" part. If the scum push too hard to lynch an inno they can get suspicions? Why, yes

Then I skip a few math posts, only a few friendly comments here and there:

 Fener, on Nov 10 2008, 11:09 PM, said:

 Omtose, on Nov 10 2008, 10:06 PM, said:

I am yet to see anyone do something suspicious enough to warrant a label "scum"
with a group of 20+ people, that in itself is suspicious,

Yes, lets lynch the bastards. All of them.

 Fener, on Nov 10 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

Well Mockra, that is not any more crazy than any other day 1 lynches...and it's an idea we haven't tried.

Nah...

Then he goes on Gamelon, after a few have pointed that his first post was not the least scummy of them all:

 Fener, on Nov 11 2008, 12:09 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be ironic if we lynch Gamelon after he's come on, while before we couldn't lynch him?

But yeah, I'd like an explanation as to why you mentioned the RI Gam.

 Fener, on Nov 11 2008, 12:25 AM, said:

We've indeed had worse day1 lynches. Why not start a train and see where it leads - if it's like water off a duck's back, then we can always switch.

 Fener, on Nov 11 2008, 12:34 AM, said:

Well, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck.

vote Gamelon

I didn't see anything between the first and last post of this sequence that would explain the switch from "let's see" to "vote".

Anyways, there's nothing there that screams "killer"! or "cult"!, just a general gut feeling that I've seen this kind of play before coming from scums

vote Fener

What I meant to do with my vote was to use it as pressure to see what happens. Why, something just did happen. Go figure!

The moment I see anything better, I'll switch. If you've seen scum playing this way, then I'm sure you've also seen alot of non-scum play like this.

*goes to read Galain's posts*

I bring up this case against Fener because, I maintain that Fener was the night 1 recruit. He went from normal happy go lucky, to a little more reserved, more careful play. Then after I called him on it, day 3 I believe he kind of went back to normal style. Anyway, This case on Fener might be a set up so that if Fener ever gets lynched he could say "I made a case on him" Further distancing himself.

 Galain, on Nov 13 2008, 04:26 AM, said:

Honestly, how hard is it to identify killers when they're dressed up in Orange Jumpsuits? Imagine the Claw walking around like that


About Omtose:

It's true that the cult would have no intention to be in the trailing posters considering our history in lynching them out of spite, and would have no reason to stick their necks out for or against anyone.

Specially considering that the pressure has been mostly on killers until now. Omtose would fill the bill, but it's coming a little out of nowhere.

Here, I think trying not to be obvious but trying to steer away from Omtose

 Galain, on Nov 14 2008, 02:35 PM, said:

I'm here 5 minutes on my way to bed.

I see from the last few posts it's 4 - 4 Meanas - Korvalain.

Sadly, I don't have time to catch up the whole thread so I'm not sure where the Korvalain thing comes from. I guess it must be for cult, which is not my #1 gut instinct but better IMO than Ruse.

One thing I thought is that Shadow suggests a guard action to explain only one kill. This further makes sense if the guard went for the logical target, which would have been Meanas. I guess he can do that again and see if there's a NK. Ivets are almost down, we need to find cult.

vote Korvalain

to trust you for now, and in case you need all the small change for the lynch. Tomorrow/Sunday at the latest I'll do my promised re-read if today's lynch is not conclusive.

I'm out

Here He says he sees no case on Korv, isn't sure where it comes from, but its better than Ruse....why??? He then votes Korv, whom he knows nothing about. Why? Because If I was the Cult leader I would sure as hell still want Ruse around as He is the prime suspect as of now.



Finally, He places another distancing vote on Fener today....Then switches it a page later. Seems Fishy. Now I know this isn't much to go on, but its hard to make it through all his posts as he is top poster. (sorry for no quotes on this one)

Any thoughts?

EDIT Grammer

This post has been edited by Hood's Path: 17 November 2008 - 06:14 PM

[Hood's Path]

@Ruse you have been very defensive, but you haven't offered up alternative cult leaders. Who are your suspects?

[Shadow]

 Ruse, on Nov 17 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

 Shadow, on Nov 17 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

 Ruse, on Nov 13 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

A cultist, nice. What are the opinions? Original member or recruit? I dont think his playstyle changed over the course of the game, which is slightly indicative of being an original member, but I'm probably just being hopeful here.

This is the one I meant. So not post style but playstyle.

Hooray, now everything I've said the whole game is going to be brought up and giving a scummy twist, so when I turn up inno, everyone will feel less guilty and say things like 'but then why was he so suspicious?'

Because yes, agreeing that someone seems scummy, that's obviously distancing, couldnt possibly be an opinion based on the same things that caused that to be pointed out in the first place. Trying to figure out how the scum mechanics work, why that can only be an attempt to lead people astray, no way he was genuinely trying to figure out what was going on and share the little information he had without giving himself away. Look, he's been helpful and friendly from the beginning of the game, he must be the original cult, despite the fact that he's one of the people who suggested the concept in the first place.

Oh come on. I rectified my mistake immediately by finding the post and posting it.

As for HP's case on Galain: he's a strong player, indeed, and he's been tickling me since day 2 when I entered the fight with him. That feeling never really stopped, but there was/is nothing to nail him to. I think you may have a point with your case, but all we do right now is clutching at straws and starting all over. Would very much appreciate the opinion of others... we still miss a few people.

I'm out for a couple of hours now, back somewhere before midnight.

[Ruse]

 Hood's Path, on Nov 17 2008, 08:15 PM, said:

@Ruse you have been very defensive, but you haven't offered up alternative cult leaders. Who are your suspects?

That's the problem. I have no idea. Hence my wanting to go for Meanas today. At least we still hit scum (or are at least highly likely to). I think I know who you think Galain is. A play like that is not outside of the realm of possibility. But I'd prefer to have something a little stronger than a pretty meta argument, simply because he's been pretty useful so far.

Off the top of my head, I'd say GL for having been near the top of my suspect list for most of the game. Maybe Mockra or Emur too, but these are purely gut arguments. I think if Fener is anything, he's a recruit.

On a side note (no I'm not trying to draw attention away from myself), but I have this wierd feeling like Gam is possessed. His tone today (and to a lesser extent the day before) reminded me of the person I had pegged as Rashan. I can't be 100% sure, since there isnt enough from either of them on the first day to be completely sure of that.

Edit - @ Shadow, my last post is just a teensy bit sarcastic. I was pretty pissed off that something completely innocent was suddenly presented as 'more damning evidence'.

This post has been edited by Ruse: 17 November 2008 - 06:34 PM

[Hood's Path]

My case on Galain is all circumstantial, but I wanted people to consider other options than Ruse, get peoples minds spinning in non traditional directions. I don't want to lynch an inno period, even if it means I am wrong. This is Mafia, I believe the proportion of right to wrong is in the area of 20% right /80%wrong

[Hood's Path]

 Ruse, on Nov 17 2008, 10:30 AM, said:

On a side note (no I'm not trying to draw attention to myself), but I have this wierd feeling like Gam is possessed. His tone today (and to a lesser extent the day before) reminded me of the person I had pegged as Rashan. I can't be 100% sure, since there isnt enough from either of them on the first day to be completely sure of that.

I'll go back and look. I almost certainly know who Gam was before... he would be a tough one to immitate very well as his vernacular is rather distinctive.

[Mockra]

Im not sure as to hitting Ivet.
It could well lose us the game.
Now, maybe a guard doesnt have him pegged.

It has occured to me that it is probably in his interests to hold his kill anyway, due to cult numbers. He kills too many innos, and he loses as well, after all, so he'd probably wanna be pretty certain beforehand.

So, I think we want to hit cult today.
Original preferably.
I dont really think its Galain, not original. Maybe recruit.

As for original, im thinking maybe emurlahn, GL, Telas, maybe Ruse or Fener.

Just my impressions.

Still feeling a bit shit, so havent been on much, im afraid.

Anyhow, thats my dinner time, so im off for a while. Back in an hour or two, hopefully.

Editted scum to ivet, to make sense.

This post has been edited by Mockra: 17 November 2008 - 06:36 PM

[Mockra]

 Hood's Path, on Nov 17 2008, 05:18 PM, said:

Mockra too. though he does tend to jump around a bit.

Oh, and I hope this isnt some alt guess, on the hope you can later go, look, hes JA, wow, quotez...

Bye.

[Ruse]

 Hood's Path, on Nov 17 2008, 08:33 PM, said:

 Ruse, on Nov 17 2008, 10:30 AM, said:

On a side note (no I'm not trying to draw attention to myself), but I have this wierd feeling like Gam is possessed. His tone today (and to a lesser extent the day before) reminded me of the person I had pegged as Rashan. I can't be 100% sure, since there isnt enough from either of them on the first day to be completely sure of that.

I'll go back and look. I almost certainly know who Gam was before... he would be a tough one to immitate very well as his vernacular is rather distinctive.

Oh, then it's probably the same guy. It was the distinctive vernacular that made me think that in the first place, since I thought Rashan said something like that, but then it might just have been drunkeness.

[Galayn Lord]

(I'm taking a break from what I should be doing)

 Emurlahn, on Nov 17 2008, 09:24 AM, said:

 Galayn Lord, on Nov 17 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

I'm going to be gone for work most of the day, so I'll just pick up where I left off:

Vote Ruse

He may as well wave a "I'm Cult!" sign around, as far as I'm concerned. He's way too interested in outing the Guard, desparately wants to off the last Ivet even though that person is contained, and is not as important as trying to lynch Cultists - whose numbers can actually increase.

That's not the behaviour of a Townie, because right now, we all should be concerned about trying to take down the Cult's recruiter, if they still live. We've got practically no hope against the Possessed, depending on the mechanics of their return, but, damnit, we can at least beat the Cult and then casually finish off the last Killer (maybe someone still has a vig, or can be given one).

Ok yes Ruse does seem a bit scummy, for various reason but to me the underlined sentence just screams IVET to me as I cant see anyone at all wanting to leave the killer alive apart from the killer himself or a symp as its just too risky as we dont know when/if the guard will be recuited or possessed.
For that reason until I get convinced otherwise
vote Galayn Lord

Me being that last Killer makes no sense, and I don't even think there is a Symp - given how stacked the game already is against the Town, having a Symp would make the Killers' job too easy. Furthermore, I didn't exactly stand by passively while Rashan and Anomandaris were lynched, nor did I try to defend or deflect during their trains - I was a supporter in both cases.

Most importantly, if the Guard is recruited or possessed, we're screwed anyways, both by losing an important RP as well as sheer numbers. May as well get some use out of them while we start chipping at the Cult, hopefully to take down the recruiter if they're still alive.

At this point, two factions benefit from us wasting a lynch on a neutralized Meanas: Cultists, and Meanas himself. People who push strongly towards that end are, in my opinion, blatantly Cult, or even Possessed who are screwing with all of us.