[frookenhauer]

Thanks to my conversations with Gem Windcaster, Bubba and Cold Iron, amongst others, I have discovered the bible. Ha! You say, we've all known of it for ages, but to that I reply. "Have you now, have you really?" And the reason I say this is because i makes for fascinating reading and I would recommend it to anyone. Some of the protagonists have already discussed most of the first two chapters in the thread "Here's one for all of you." but here is a brief outline:

Chapter 1. God creates earth and the heavens and the animals and the sea monsters and man and gives mankind dominion over creation and he does it in 6 days and on Sunday he puts his feet up and relaxes. Its all a bit fishy with regards to how the whole creation thingy is envisaged and I'm fairly certain that I do not subscribe to the ideas laid out.

Chapter 2. God creates Adam and then creates all the animals and then Eve and the garden of Eden, which lies eastward. A slight continuity error, but never mind. He then commands that the tree of knowledge remain untouched. Which is a bit silly of God really, because of the whole taboo thing. But I think its all part of the plan, seeing as he invented man and is omnipotent, he knew that eventually Adam would probably have some of that.

In Chapter 3 and here it is in all its glory:

Quote

1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?' 2 And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.' 4 And the serpent said unto the woman: 'Ye shall not surely die; 5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.' 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves girdles. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden toward the cool of the day; and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto the man, and said unto him: 'Where art thou?' 10 And he said: 'I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.' 11 And He said: 'Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?' 12 And the man said: 'The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.' 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman: 'What is this thou hast done?' And the woman said: 'The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.' 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.' {S} 16 Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.' {S} 17 And unto Adam He said: 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying: Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.' 20 And the man called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. {P}

22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.' 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life. {S}

As you can see, it was the serpent that did it for Adam and Eve. But rather than hating the serpent, I've become a huge fan. The reason is simple. None of us would have been here if Adam had not been turfed out of Eden. In fact Eve only became able to conceive children after tasting of the fruit, when God decreed that she would only be able to bring forth children in pain. Praise be to the serpent! That tree of knowledge was a bit crap really, if all it let Adam know about was the fact that his nik naks are hanging in the wind, poor show. Also I'd like to point out that when turfed out of Eden God decreed that he would till the earth and whatnot and eat bread. This is very interesting because it was only until about ten thousand years ago (according to physical evidence from archaeologists around the world) that we were hunter gatherers. And if anyone sees a little angelic creature with a big burning sword let us know, so I can have a taste of that tree of knowledge, because I need to know that my nik naks are safely in my shorts.

So you see, the serpent is not evil at all, and in fact kick started humanity. So when you see a snake don't stamp upon its head, let it go on its merry way. All hail the snake! Love thy snake! Oi, keep your hand away from your trousers

[Aptorian]

Crazy thread, weeee...

First off, the reason to why no one reads the bible anymore is because it's written in that ladida form of speech

Second of all, if it hadn't been for that god damn snake Adam and Eve would had multiplied in the Garden of Eden and not in the fucking desert. Women wouldn't have had to give labor in pain, meaning they wouldn't be so bitchy all the time. We'd all be living in a magical land of fruit and honey and unicorns.

Third is the thing I never got. Supposedly Adam and Eve joined some tribes when they came down on earth or went outside the garden or what ever. Where the hell did they come from? Where they all the other Adam and Eves that didn't do as god said?

Fourth, supposedly there was a woman before Eve. Called Lillith. She wasn't a very god wife... or something... she was thrown out also. Apparently, and I've only ever heard this through word of mouth, but she became a kind of mother of devils and monsters, like the greek Mother of all Monsters, Echidna.

The bible is awesome. Greatest and most popular Fantasy omnibus ever

*runs and hides before the bible thumbers find me*

[teholbeddict]

Aptorian, on Oct 31 2008, 12:01 PM, said:

First off, the reason to why no one reads the bible anymore is because it's written in that ladida form of speech

Second of all, if it hadn't been for that god damn snake Adam and Eve would had multiplied in the Garden of Eden and not in the fucking desert. Women wouldn't have had to give labor in pain, meaning they wouldn't be so bitchy all the time. We'd all be living in a magical land of fruit and honey and unicorns.

I agree, I've always thought someone should do a re-write of the great book, purely for the story element and the leave out the rest of the jargon. I mean we all know only a small percentage is factual anyways.

I would also like to point out that we women being bitchy has nothing to do with the pain of labor and everything to do with you asshole males!

This post has been edited by teholbeddict: 31 October 2008 - 05:25 PM

[frookenhauer]

There were no kids until after they got booted out of Eden. I mean kids would have spoiled the tranquility of the Garden and they would have clambered over everything and made a nuisance of themselves...kids, Tsk! They might even have realised they were naked because they would not have understood the rulez and eaten the fruit without any prodding from the serpent. All hail the serpent! Children weren't even part of the equation until God got pissed off with Eve enough to make her have some. Prior to that it was all ribs and suchlike that led to new people being formed. Its all explained so stay tuned

Lillith? Maybe we'll get mention of her later on...As to the ladida speech, at least its not as bad as Guy Gavriel Kay.

Oh and you can all have a look at the Torah/Old Testament translation which was done in 1917 here. And it allows you to download a copy for your enjoyment, please donate.

edit: @ Tehol: Too many things are lost in translation, its better to have it close enough to the original. Whats the point of modifying a classic? And I always thought you were a man!

This post has been edited by frookenhauer: 31 October 2008 - 05:35 PM

[Aptorian]

Well, there are easy to read versions of the bible. Some of the meaning might get lost in translation, but more people might be interested in the bible if it was more accessible.

At least it comes in other forms than hebrew, greek and latin... otherwise it would had been a REAL pain in the ass.

[frookenhauer]

"Nothing good is ever easy" springs to mind. I'm of the opinion that the writing style adds a certain character to the works. I've actually read some of the new English Bible versions of the Old Testament and I can see where they try to overlay modern thinking onto the translation, which is not the way to go about it. I prefer this translation because its not so up with itself to bother making it all palatable. Raw 'data' can't be beat!

I've also had a look recently at some of the new testament stuff and its way too prosaic. The genesis stuff is straightforward by comparison and gets my vote.

[teholbeddict]

Well dear frookenhauer, you thought wrong. I am indeed a woman. :gaes-orfantal: I could see how the mistake could be made though with my choice of screen name. It's not so much re-writing of the classic that I was suggesting, as an assembly, perhaps expansion of the major stories/events minus the religious aspect. If that makes sense to anyone.

[frookenhauer]

Aw shucks! You're so sweet . Yeah...why not. Bible 2.0 is not a bad idea.

[Terez]

I don't think Martin Luther realized his vernacular translation was the beginning of the end of religion...

[Cause]

frookenhauer, on Oct 31 2008, 06:43 PM, said:

Chapter 1. God creates earth and the heavens and the animals and the sea monsters and man and gives mankind dominion over creation and he does it in 6 days and on Sunday he puts his feet up and relaxes. Its all a bit fishy with regards to how the whole creation thingy is envisaged and I'm fairly certain that I do not subscribe to the ideas laid out.

Actually its friday night, why did christians change it to sunday? I often wonder at gods lazines. He could have done it in an instant, being omnipotent and all, but took six days and he still felt he deserved a day off after. Also since he does not seem to be answering prayers I wonder if he is still off the clock so to speak?

[frookenhauer]

Hey Terez, you got me all confused, I can't figure what you're saying...care to elaborate?

Cause, on Nov 1 2008, 02:19 AM, said:

Actually its friday night, why did christians change it to sunday? I often wonder at gods lazines. He could have done it in an instant, being omnipotent and all, but took six days and he still felt he deserved a day off after. Also since he does not seem to be answering prayers I wonder if he is still off the clock so to speak?

Cool, didn't know that, which means God got up on Saturday to get the water flowing. And finally, someone else has taken up and wielded omnipotence correctly, good show Cause . God might be answering your prayers, but you won't know for sure, and direct communication is so passe, its been done to death why bother these days? Let the rabble fend for themselves, he's already laid down the law. Anyway...

So its been fun and excitement for the first 3 chapters, lots of drama and plenty of surprises. But thing start hotting up in chapter 4:

Quote

1 And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived and bore Cain, and said: 'I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.' 2 And again she bore his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering; 5 but unto Cain and to his offering He had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain: 'Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door; and unto thee is its desire, but thou mayest rule over it.' 8 And Cain spoke unto Abel his brother. And it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the LORD said unto Cain: 'Where is Abel thy brother?' And he said: 'I know not; am I my brother's keeper?' 10 And He said: 'What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto Me from the ground. 11 And now cursed art thou from the ground, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand. 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a wanderer shalt thou be in the earth.' 13 And Cain said unto the LORD: 'My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the land; and from Thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer in the earth; and it will come to pass, that whosoever findeth me will slay me.' 15 And the LORD said unto him: 'Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.' And the LORD set a sign for Cain, lest any finding him should smite him. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bore Enoch; and he builded a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son Enoch. 18 And unto Enoch was born Irad; and Irad begot Mehujael; and Mehujael begot Methushael; and Methushael begot Lamech. 19 And Lamech took unto him two wives; the name of one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20 And Adah bore Jabal; he was the father of such as dwell in tents and have cattle. 21 And his brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all such as handle the harp and pipe. 22 And Zillah, she also bore Tubal-cain, the forger of every cutting instrument of brass and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah. 23 And Lamech said unto his wives: Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech; for I have slain a man for wounding me, and a young man for bruising me; 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold. 25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bore a son, and called his name Seth: 'for God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him.' 26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh; then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. {S}

Its the first murder! Cain did the deed when god favoured Abel's offering over his. Which is a shame, because god could just have said to Cain "Nice fruit, now go along and play!" And all would have been well. And why did god need to ask Cain where his brother is? Maybe his omniscience was on the fritz, never mind. So he moves to the land of Nod, so that's where that came from, interesting. And he starts his own dynasty in Enochsville, but where did his wife come from? Moving swiftly on...Jabal is the father of nomadic herders and Tubal-cain was the forger of Iron and bronze tools. So after 8 generations we get bronze working and Iron working. The bronze age in the middle east lasted from 3300 -1200 BC and the Iron age came after that, but Iron smelting was thought to have been around from about 1800 BC onwards. Interesting, no? I'm fascinated by all this. There's a little bit of meaningless gibberish from Lameth and then we zoom back to Adam who has another son, who has a son...So these words could not really have been written before 2000 BC by even the most generous of margins, if we go by archaeological evidence. What I really want to know is where Cains wife came from...and all these other wives that mysteriously appear when needed. It really puts a damper on the whole first man idea because there seems to be an inexhaustable supply of readily available women who would not mind tribe hopping, maybe in those days it rained women...nice.

Don't forget to thank the serpent! All hail!

[Terez]

frookenhauer, on Oct 31 2008, 10:22 PM, said:

Hey Terez, you got me all confused, I can't figure what you're saying...care to elaborate?

Just that one of Luther's big things with the Church was that everything was in Latin, none of the masses had Bibles or knew how to read them, so therefore the Church dictated what the people believed. He'd read enough of the Bible to know that what the Church said had little to do with what was in the Bible. So, he promoted Biblical literacy. See the problem?

[Cause]

Theirs a few explanations to explain the other people. A few things I have heard from rabbis, keep in mind I have learnt they speak a lot of bullshit, are their were other 'gardnens' that adam and eve were not the first human beings so to say but the first with souls. BLah blah blah

[Aptorian]

The first garden vwith soul was called Motown. ba dum tish.

[Cause]

Nicely played. Nicely played.

[bubba]

[attachment=665:facepalmgi0.jpg]

[frookenhauer]

Terez, on Nov 1 2008, 03:52 AM, said:

Just that one of Luther's big things with the Church was that everything was in Latin, none of the masses had Bibles or knew how to read them, so therefore the Church dictated what the people believed. He'd read enough of the Bible to know that what the Church said had little to do with what was in the Bible. So, he promoted Biblical literacy. See the problem?

I see! Very good point, his idea might have been to make everyone the shepherd, but when the real story came out, it sounded less and less realistic and so the once mighty churches foundations began crumbling and the flock began to disappear. All Luther wanted to do was free the people, just goes to show something about that saying regarding good intentions. Gosh, you're well clever when you talk in riddles

Cause, on Nov 1 2008, 02:00 PM, said:

Theirs a few explanations to explain the other people. A few things I have heard from rabbis, keep in mind I have learnt they speak a lot of bullshit, are their were other 'gardnens' that adam and eve were not the first human beings so to say but the first with souls. BLah blah blah

Sounds like a knee jerk reaction to people asking the question about all the extra women. I think I'm going to stick with my idea about raining women, after all it was the time of miracles and everyone seemed to be in direct contact with god in those days. Thing I don't get, why would those people have no souls? It don't make sense on any level. where did you find these Rabbis?

@ Aptorian, you give me the funnies

[frookenhauer]

Okey dokey! I've spent some time with Chapter 5 and here it is:

Quote

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him; 2 male and female created He them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth. 4 And the days of Adam after he begot Seth were eight hundred years; and he begot sons and daughters. 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died. {S} 6 And Seth lived a hundred and five years, and begot Enosh. 7 And Seth lived after he begot Enosh eight hundred and seven years, and begot sons and daughters. 8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died. {S} 9 And Enosh lived ninety years, and begot Kenan. 10 And Enosh lived after he begot Kenan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begot sons and daughters. 11 And all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died. {S} 12 And Kenan lived seventy years, and begot Mahalalel. 13 And Kenan lived after he begot Mahalalel eight hundred and forty years, and begot sons and daughters. 14 And all the days of Kenan were nine hundred and ten years; and he died. {S} 15 And Mahalalel lived sixty and five years, and begot Jared. 16 And Mahalalel lived after he begot Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters. 17 And all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred ninety and five years; and he died. {S} 18 And Jared lived a hundred sixty and two years, and begot Enoch. 19 And Jared lived after he begot Enoch eight hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. 20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years; and he died. {S} 21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 And Enoch walked with God after he begot Methuselah three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God, and he was not; for God took him. {S} 25 And Methuselah lived a hundred eighty and seven years, and begot Lamech. 26 And Methuselah lived after he begot Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begot sons and daughters. 27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years; and he died. {S} 28 And Lamech lived a hundred eighty and two years, and begot a son. 29 And he called his name Noah, saying: 'This same shall comfort us in our work and in the toil of our hands, which cometh from the ground which the LORD hath cursed.' 30 And Lamech lived after he begot Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begot sons and daughters. 31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years; and he died. {S} 32 And Noah was five hundred years old; and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

How awesome is that most of the dudes lived to 900+. And they were happy to hump till they dropped, because they are doing a lot of begot-ing. I'm just doing the maths for the time leading to Noahs' birth...1091 years, so Adam missed the next big thing by 161 years. But in many of these cases, these lusty young people waited until they were in their hundreds before quenching the iron. Weird, huh? Maybe their balls didn't drop until they hit the century and sex education classes were poorly enforced. Mind you I remember getting into a scrap when I was 10 with another kid because he told me that my parents had sex like James Bond...Anyway. It all sounds a little contrived, and the extra free women wondering about earlier is still relatively unexplained. Still no sign of that Lillith woman, but Genesis did not say that it was Eve that gave birth to Seth or the other begottens, so there is still some wiggle room. Another big name is that canny character Methuselah who lived for a whopping 969 years and was about when Noah begot his three sons...Its getting quite exciting now. We're going to come to the flood soon, so fasten your seat belts, and get your life jackets on, things are going to get a little hairy!

[Aptorian]

Oh Lillith doesn't appear in the bible. Like a lot of other cool stuff she was written out of it at some time.

[frookenhauer]

Damnit, do you have any reference to some of this awesome info? Its for a good cause