[Ammanas]

Silencer, on Nov 12 2008, 05:55 PM, said:

I wouldn't put it past Rake to not need sleep.

He is more than 300,000 years old...so perhaps sleep is no longer a requirement for someone who is basically a god? Ammanas and Cotillion don't need food. In fact, I can't imagine someone like Rake sleeping.

I dont't think the chain of smoke has anything to do with Rake needing release. We saw the chains of smoke all the way back in GoTM when he got out of Baruk's carriage and cleared a path through the crowds to find the Galayn demon. He drew Drag to scare the crowd into getting out of his way. Seems the chain of smoke always appears when Drag is out of the scabbard.

[eekwibble]

I had this lined up to send earlier but had to go out and didn't finish it. I've made a few alterations and I know some stuff has been Aptcepted already.

The pressure felt inside the sword is never stated as being directly proportional to the weight of it in the outside world, therefore Hood's entering/presence in the sword does not have an effect on the physical weight of it. Rake staggers because of what he knows has to now happen and what it means to him.
The sword exerted pressure on Rake because of the presence of the gate to Darkness and/or the presence/proximity of Chaos, nothing to do with souls.
'Pressure' is the word that should be used to describe Dragni's effects in the mortal realm. Baruk describes it as a 'weight' in GotM;

Quote

Suddenly the walls around him groaned, and Baruk gasped as an enormous weight seemed to press down on him. GotM P209

No need to see that as the sword being physically heavier.
Pearl's pov is just that; PEARL's pov. It isn't definitive that the 'bad parts of souls go to Chaos'. That's just how he/she/it sees it.
The chains that trail from Dragnipur are let loose by Rake (imo) to warn peasants away (fucking peasants! ). Ok, maybe not precisely correct but it appeared to work like that in a better (less bloodthirsty) form than the fear of violence created by the HoS presence in DJ. I can't see any reason for him keeping them 'reigned-in' other than for altruistic motives (which he's displayed a penchant for from the start). I can't see him getting 'lazy' Sil, I think he's been suppressing the 'pressure' of Dragni since he took possession of it, that's why he had the stone block/gun-case for it and now he's in the mortal realm, in the middle of a convergence, he needs to let his enemies and all the innocents know that he's bad-ass personified and to stay the fuck away.
I don't think he sleeps either.

amphibian, on Nov 11 2008, 05:52 AM, said:

Rake himself was a huge weight inside Draconus and he didn't go in with an army.

LOL'D MY ASS OFF!!! :Patch:


- eek, doesn't sleep either. I must be just like Rake!!!1!

[Silencer]

I'm going to have to break the quotes out, aren't I?

First of all, the weight experience when Rake first turns up disappears. Indicating that it either is NOT Draginpur, and is in fact Rake, or that it is merely a temporary thing.
Also, I was not referring to the chains so much as the power. We've seen the chains before, yes, but not the power unleashed completely. The sword trails smoke, which sometimes looks like chains - when he kills the Galayn Lord. The chains have never spread out behind him before.

I'll get back to you lot with quotes shortly.

[Traveller]

I'm fairly certain that Rake unleashed the 'pressure' within the sword with the intent to put out the fires spreading through Daru. That's what it says in the sequence following Rakes death, anyway - he saved the city.

So the pressure can be a physical form - although i think that mostly it is contained, and only sensed by some - mages seem to be more affected though, probably because they are more sensitive to what it holds.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 13 November 2008 - 11:14 AM

[Blend]

Traveller, on Nov 13 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

I'm fairly certain that Rake unleashed the 'pressure' within the sword with the intent to put out the fires spreading through Daru. That's what it says in the sequence following Rakes death, anyway - he saved the city.

So the pressure can be a physical form - although i think that mostly it is contained, and only sensed by some - mages seem to be more affected though, probably because they are more sensitive to what it holds.

I'd forgotten about that... Spite's little lava thing set off the gas chambers under Darujhistan, and if it hadn't been for the weight or pressure or whatever, Darujhistan would surely be a crater by now.

That being said, the sword itself definitely has some sort of weight or pressure to it. Remember when Anomander puts the sword into the stone holding case thing in the palace in Black Coral and the Mountain begins to sweat? Not even a mountain is strong enough to carry the sword, though Rake can. Rake's being an ascendant probably makes it so that he can suppress the pressure/weight thing when he's carrying it.

[Jude]

So maybe the chains of smoke have nothing to do with the pressure, because, as was mentioned, we saw them in GotM as well and Rake didn't really have a need to release any of it right there... unless ofcourse the Galayn lord was just badass enough that Rake needed to release a little bit to prepare and adapt to him entering the sword. I mean, I'm sure it was stated in there that Raest (a super powerful Jaghut Tyrant that beats the shit out of five dragons) was just let out to weaken Rake so that the even more powerful main threat (the Galayn Lord) could finish him off. That would also mean that the chains of smoke escaping the sword in TTH meant that Rake was also preparing himself for Hood to enter.

Drib, I'm almost certain that Rake wasn't forced to his knees because he knew what was coming and was staggered by it. Rake doesn't seem like the kind of guy to fall off his chair when the full brunt of something he has been planning for god knows how long "finally sinks in." Also, as Blend said, to have that scene with the stone sweating while holding the sword is almost moot if Rake being driven down after he kills hood isn't because of an increase of pressure from the sword.

This post has been edited by Jude: 13 November 2008 - 06:07 PM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Silencer, on Nov 13 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

I wouldn't put it past Rake to not need sleep.

He is more than 300,000 years old...so perhaps sleep is no longer a requirement for someone who is basically a god? Ammanas and Cotillion don't need food. In fact, I can't imagine someone like Rake sleeping.

Perhaps that's why Silchas Ruin has red eyes...

Another possibility is that Rake knew what he had just done and was overcome by it all. Maybe.

I might add that Traveller was carrying Vengeance, along with a "singular will" and so was going to beat Rake regardless. Just so you know...

[Aptorian]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Nov 14 2008, 06:54 AM, said:

I might add that Traveller was carrying Vengeance, along with a "singular will" and so was going to beat Rake regardless. Just so you know...

*sigh*

[Jude]

Aptorian, on Nov 14 2008, 01:47 AM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Nov 14 2008, 06:54 AM, said:

I might add that Traveller was carrying Vengeance, along with a "singular will" and so was going to beat Rake regardless. Just so you know...

*sigh*

Apt why you gotta sigh at my boy AIJ? Just because he refuses to grow doesn't mean you gotta be so hard on him!

[eekwibble]

The bit about Caladan chucking the sword into Baruk's carriage is enough to throw the weight theory out the window. "clattered and clanged" I believe was the description. Sure Caladan was a big bad-ass himself but the carriage was nothing special and that didn't collapse. I know, that's AFTER the big fight and the exit of chaos from the sword and most of the captured souls have been destroyed but if there's any credence to Hood being a significant factor then his presence would surely still make a difference.
Also, any extra weight that Hood gave clearly didn't slow Rake in his fight with Dassem.

Maybe SE put words like 'weight', 'pressure', 'trailing smoke/chains' in because they read well and sound awesome?!?

[Mcflury]

You kinda say it yourself: it's after all the things in Dragnipurhave happened that Brood picks up the weapon and throws it away. In other words: Rake solved all freaky problems Dragnipur had already by that time. That seems reason enough for Drag not being so 'heavy' anymore.

And I refuse to believe SE keeps on mumbling about Drag just because it's cool, there must be other reasons

And about Rake not being slowed down by the weight: you don't really know this. Maybe, without the weight, Rake wouldn't have ended up with his own sword in his own head (allthough it seems Rake crashed it inside himself on purpous, or am I still not getting why Karsa and Samar Dev screamed 'cheat' as it happened?).

Ah well, as I recall Dragnipur was going to be destroyed by the end of the book, so no need to worry about it longer I guess

[Aptorian]

Karsa called the result "cheat" because it would seem that Rake set himself up for the killing blow. He was in the exact same position as his opening stance when Dassems sword hit Dragnipur. Rake's stance would had deflected Dassems blow but the angle of grip on his sword was wrong and caused the blade to hit him the forhead. Rake is a great swordsman, probably better than Dassem, and him making that mistake is highly unlikely.

[Grief]

Well, there was no reason for Rake to win.
Why would he want dassem in dragnipur, along with Hood?
Im sure that would have the same end result of the universe being saved. Or not.

On the point of unbeatability using vengeance, that aint the way.
Yes, andarist calls it "unbeatable" but I dont think he means it literally.
Unbeatable, that means you cant be beaten. We're not just talking 1v1 here. We're talking unbeatable. By anything.
However magical your sword is, theres some things you just aint gonna beat. Armies 100,000 strong, for example.
I suspect it is like determination. If you're determined, you fight better, more motivated. I reckon the sword amplifies this.
That wont make you unbeatable. It'll make you better, yes, undefeatable, no.

[Jude]

It's pretty much common knowlege that Rake set himself up to die. The rest of his plan would have made no sense without him wanting to die in that sword fight. Ofcourse then there's always the whole why didn't he just stab himself in the face question...

[Almar mae' Ka'zole]

I dont think that Rake would find it appropriate to just stab himself in the face, haha. But Im not sure that Rake knew exactly what was going to happen. Maybe it was a spur of the moment thing.

[Silencer]

Hehe, I'm pretty sure that by now, most people agree that Rake did it deliberately, had been planning it for centuries or longer, and would have actually defeated Dassem if he was really fighting him.

I don't think it was a "spur of the moment thing", lol!

[Ammanas]

Silencer, on Nov 18 2008, 01:43 PM, said:

Hehe, I'm pretty sure that by now, most people agree that Rake did it deliberately, had been planning it for centuries or longer, and would have actually defeated Dassem if he was really fighting him.

I don't think it was a "spur of the moment thing", lol!

Yes, he did it deliberately and no, it was not a spur of the moment thing. Would he have defeated Dassem straight sword, no spewing Galain on him..who knows? It's not clear to me that Dassem had any passion for the fight.

Back to the pressure issue, I still maintain that is a Rake attribute unrelated to Dragnipur. Something similar is experienced in NoK when Kellanved is around, although to a lesser degree. Kellanved--Meanas or Rashan, Rake-KG. You could make an argument its warren based although pressure is never mentioned when Silchas is around.

This post has been edited by Ammanas: 18 November 2008 - 08:24 PM

[Grief]

Id be dissapointed if Dassem had no passion for the fight. Hood was in Dragnipur. Rake stopped him getting Hood. Yes, Dassem didnt want to have to fight Rake. But it was the only way for him to get to Hood. It would kinda ruin the whole concept of Dassems vengeance lust, if everyone time someone he respsected got in the way, he went "yeah, dont care, wont try my hardest to get him, i'll leave it till later". This is meant to be his SOLE driving purpose. Im pretty sure he was trying.

I mean, I doubt either of them wanted to kill the other. Probably more so for Rake, who wanted to get himself in dragnipur. If Dassem had little passion for the fight, id say Rake had less, since the last thing he wanted was Dassem to die. He just wanted to get himself killed by dragnipur, with Dassem around in case anything went terribly wrong, which doesnt really require passionate fighting, since he just needed himself to die, and could easily manipulate the fight how he wanted, by the looks of it, and he managed this fine.

[Mcflury]

Ammanas, on Nov 18 2008, 09:19 PM, said:

Back to the pressure issue, I still maintain that is a Rake attribute unrelated to Dragnipur. Something similar is experienced in NoK when Kellanved is around, although to a lesser degree. Kellanved--Meanas or Rashan, Rake-KG. You could make an argument its warren based although pressure is never mentioned when Silchas is around.

I'm pretty sure the whole pressure issue thing wasn't there because of the warrens. You give a beautiful argument for that with Silchas yourself, but even then I'm almost 80% sure the kind of pressure that was experienced around Kellanved was completely different from the pressure felt around Rake at those last moments.

Small question, how again did the giant charriot inside Dragnipur stop moving? I kinda forgot, but I have a slight hunch the immense pressure only showed when the wagon stopped, so the pressure must come from the wagon that stopped then... so that would indeed hint it has to do with the warrens of course, but not in a Kellanved way

Grief, on Nov 18 2008, 09:31 PM, said:

Id be dissapointed if Dassem had no passion for the fight. Hood was in Dragnipur. Rake stopped him getting Hood. Yes, Dassem didnt want to have to fight Rake. But it was the only way for him to get to Hood. It would kinda ruin the whole concept of Dassems vengeance lust, if everyone time someone he respsected got in the way, he went "yeah, dont care, wont try my hardest to get him, i'll leave it till later". This is meant to be his SOLE driving purpose. Im pretty sure he was trying.

Fighting Rake being the sole step left for Dassem to get to Hood doesn't mean he likes doing it. So Dassem was not willing perhaps to completely kill his enemy, perchance only wound him to make sure he could get past Rake.

[Grief]

It doesnt mean he likes doing it, but Rake makes it fairly obvious he's going to have to.
Also, im doubting Dassem is really arrogant enough to think he can do something like Brys on someone like Rake, so im doubting he was witholding a killing blow in hope of that.

Then again, perhaps both were, because Rake doesnt want Dassem dead, just no reason for him to, he wants him to force him to dragnipur him, which he does, and Dassem quite possibly knwos this, and therefore feels he has more chance of pulling off injuring him. I mean, if Rake cant even allow himself to hit Dassem, then Dassem would have more chance of injuring him. Then again, There is no evidence Dassem hit rake at all before Rake made him kill him with dragnipur, and Rake couldnt afford to kill Dassem, so was likely just defending.