[Salt-Man Z]

If Dassem wanted to get to Hood so badly, why didn't he just let Rake nip him with Dragnipur?

I loved the monster climax at the end of this book, but looking back, it's difficult getting it to make any sense.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 18 November 2008 - 10:08 PM

[amphibian]

I think Rake was planning post-Dragnipur. Many ascendants made a play for the sword and most of them were decidedly not warm and fuzzy.

I believe he wanted Dassem to pick it up or at least fend off whoever tried to grab it. But that didn't work out exactly as planned and Karsa, being the random dude he is, actually did that job with Shadowthrone's help.

[Ammanas]

Grief, on Nov 18 2008, 03:41 PM, said:

It doesnt mean he likes doing it, but Rake makes it fairly obvious he's going to have to.
Also, im doubting Dassem is really arrogant enough to think he can do something like Brys on someone like Rake, so im doubting he was witholding a killing blow in hope of that.

Then again, perhaps both were, because Rake doesnt want Dassem dead, just no reason for him to, he wants him to force him to dragnipur him, which he does, and Dassem quite possibly knwos this, and therefore feels he has more chance of pulling off injuring him. I mean, if Rake cant even allow himself to hit Dassem, then Dassem would have more chance of injuring him. Then again, There is no evidence Dassem hit rake at all before Rake made him kill him with dragnipur, and Rake couldnt afford to kill Dassem, so was likely just defending.

The reason Karsa called it a cheat and Dassem appeared distraught was because he realized he was never going to get Hood without becoming a victim of Dragnipur, which he wouldn't allow.

The goal of Rake was to get inside Dragnipur. The goal of Dassem was to slay Hood. Hood was already inside Dragnipur so Dassem's goal was out of reach before he ever encountered Rake. He got set up and Karsa recognized it, terming it a cheat. Dassem was little more than a puppet in Darujhistan and I contend this was the purpose of the Hood/ST prologue meeting. Edgewalker mitigated the terms--clearly from Hood's later comment, Rake had already agreed to kill him. So I conclude ST manipulated Dassem into the Rake "suicide showdown", basically snaring Dassem into a premeditated greater scheme.

[Aptorian]

Yes, but the whole thing still doesn't make any sense. Dassem was obviously ment to protect the sword after Rake fell but instead he broke. But there's one thing that Rake obviously hadn't taken into account, if Dassem truly was that driven what was to stop him from just stabbing himself with Dragnipur afterwards? Then inside Dragnipur there would be no where for Hood to run.

[Lisheo]

I think Dassem was supposed to accept that the need for Dragnipur to be protected was greater than his desire to kill Hood... And no one was expecting the Hounds of Light to show up to take the sword.
Alas, Dassem broke.

[amphibian]

Aptorian, on Nov 18 2008, 11:41 PM, said:

Yes, but the whole thing still doesn't make any sense. Dassem was obviously ment to protect the sword after Rake fell but instead he broke. But there's one thing that Rake obviously hadn't taken into account, if Dassem truly was that driven what was to stop him from just stabbing himself with Dragnipur afterwards? Then inside Dragnipur there would be no where for Hood to run.

Why would Dassem want to kill an already dead god? Plus he'd have to do it with his bare hands.

Draconus is an Elder God and probably something like an elemental force - Hood is not. He's dead dead.

[Grief]

Think how many dudes would be around who could stop Dassem from gettin to Hood inside Dragnipur. They could buy easily enough time for Rake to do his shit, before having to step in and stop Dassem again.

I doubt Karsas "cheat" refers to Dassem being set up. If he couldnt get to Hood anyway, he has no cause to fight Rake in the first place. Also, if that was the reason, he would have said it far earlier, not when Rake made Dassem kill him.
It was a "cheat" because Rake out-swordplayed him into killing Rake with his own sword.

[Aptorian]

amphibian, on Nov 19 2008, 08:42 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Nov 18 2008, 11:41 PM, said:

Yes, but the whole thing still doesn't make any sense. Dassem was obviously ment to protect the sword after Rake fell but instead he broke. But there's one thing that Rake obviously hadn't taken into account, if Dassem truly was that driven what was to stop him from just stabbing himself with Dragnipur afterwards? Then inside Dragnipur there would be no where for Hood to run.

Why would Dassem want to kill an already dead god? Plus he'd have to do it with his bare hands.

Draconus is an Elder God and probably something like an elemental force - Hood is not. He's dead dead.

You're not dead dead when you're killed by Dragnipur. Your soul is chained to the wagon, it's sort of a different afterlife.

Dassem is supposed to have been consumed with rage, litterally driven by a thirst for vengeance. Erikson doesn't actually make so much out of this but check out RCG, the guy is insane. Forget about thinking clearly, I would have expected him to grab Dragnipur and fall on it. Then, armed or not, seek out Hood and kill him or die trying. Dismembering him and throwing him into chaos if he had to.

As for there being lots of creatures to stop him inside the sword, Dassem is as lethal unarmed as not. I think he would have made his way.

[Grief]

Lethal yes.
Lethal enough to get Hood? No.

There's draconus, and a bunch of other nasties there.

Also, he would be chained.

[Aptorian]

Yes, he would be chained to the wagon, along with Hood. I think there's a reason why Dassem is so feared, no army of demons or dead would stop him, again read RCG the guy is insane

Spoiler

He slaughtered two wargalleys and set them on fire, quicker than you can say FUBAR

Hood wasn't who was needed in the sword it was the army of the dead. I don't know that the other ascendants would stand between Hood and Dassem.

In fact, having served his purpose, I think Hood might chose to willingly face Dassem. Either to fight him or accept what ever punishment his former Knight would deal him. Who knows, maybe Hood would explain the events of the chaining in such a way that Dassem dropped the whole thing.

[Grief]

Pretty sure a lot of the ascendants there could stop him.

Spoiler

Humans are easy, after all.
2 wargalleys, meh. A lot of mages/ascendants could probably do that.

[Aptorian]

Yes, I wasn't implying that Draconus, Rake or Hood couldn't have done that, I merely ment that setting the dead army or the other chained up against him probably wouldn't have worked. He'd have carved through them like a hot knife through butter.

Anyway, we're getting way of topic. I merely suggested that there was a certain risk in letting Dassem alone with that sword, if he knew that Hood was inside it. Which by the way, it didn't seem like he realised.

[Grief]

Aye, not sure he knew.
Because i dislike that his vengeance wouldnt stop him picking it up.
He just knew Rake had stopped him getting it, I guess.

[Volkh]

The only person who knew Hood was dead and in the sword was Rake. I really really need to re-read this part, but i think it was said that there was a empty throne in the city as well. The only things i can think that Rake was doing was either keeping Trav from getting to that throne ( even though that wasn't the intent ) or he was setting up a way to get killed by his own sword. Rake knew if he stood in the way of Trav that Trav would fight him. Trav was an accident as well and his only reason for being was to kill Hood.

I think both reason's are valid but the 2nd one is more then likely correct. Remember that Rake himself set up alot of events that all had to happen right for them to even have a chance at sececeding in his goal.


volkh

ps. i can't spell

[Aptorian]

Remember the prologue? The meeting between Shadow and Death? Cots and ST new what was going to happen, and events of RCG suggests that they were the ones that sent Dassem to Darujistan.

When ascendants, and more importantly, gods die, I think other powerfull ascendants nearby feel it. I think Brood, Envy/Spite, K'rull, etc. knew the instance Hoods head came off... the question is if Dassem knew this. Apparently not.

A good question would be, where did Hoods body disappear to?

[Silencer]

Because, unlike the other people/things killed by Rake, Hood had already left his body behind - remember on the Ice Throne? So assuming that is Hood, his appearance was either a manifestation of power or his spirit. Assuming it was either of those, it makes sense that it disappeared when he was Dragnipur'd.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

The souls in Drag: now that the sword's been shattered, will those souls return to the mortal plane?

[Aptorian]

Yes, I think it's Vorcan who musses on where the sword will "spill out".

[blackzoid]

Silencer, on Nov 21 2008, 07:15 AM, said:

Because, unlike the other people/things killed by Rake, Hood had already left his body behind - remember on the Ice Throne? So assuming that is Hood, his appearance was either a manifestation of power or his spirit. Assuming it was either of those, it makes sense that it disappeared when he was Dragnipur'd.

Remember the description of Rake and Hood been mirror images of each other when they knelt down?
One after being beheaded, the other straining under the weight of the sword.
Hoods body is right there in the street.
Then later when Dassem turns up there is no mention of this most critical of details: Hood's dead body. I mean surely Dassem would have seen it..right? Wouldhe not have realised right there that Rake had done his job for him?
We can't say it was a manisfestation of Hood, because the book made such a deal of Hood been there in the flesh when he turned up in Gaz's back garden. Erikosn makes sure that we get the idea that Hood is actually physically there.

So was the body of Hood moved before Dassem reached Rake?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 21 November 2008 - 12:02 PM

[Jude]

I think the question here is, what WAS the body of Hood? As Silencer said, Hood had indeed left his body a long time ago and it's sitting on the ice throne. Did he reposess his body to come to Darujhistan? Did he posess the body of some other Jaghut? Or was it indeed a manifestation of power? That would explain why it's no longer mentioned when Travman gets there. It remains for a while as the residual power ebbs out and then it would fade away, like a video game after you beat up a bad guy. However, as you have said, Blackzoid, why make such a big deal about Hood showing up "in the flesh?"