[Jude]

amphibian, on Nov 11 2008, 12:52 AM, said:

Shadowthrone, on Nov 11 2008, 01:28 AM, said:

I got the feeling that Hood brought with him the presence of all his "dead". Maybe not but that would explain why it got so much harder for Rake.

Hood by himself was a huge weight inside Draconus. The armies made it heavier.

Rake himself was a huge weight inside Draconus and he didn't go in with an army.

"One really big guy stepped into a boat. The boat leaned way over to the side, but settled down. The huge bunch of ducks following him got onto the boat too. The boat leaned a bit to the side and then settled down again. Another really big guy got onto the same boat and the boat leaned way over to the side again. There were no ducks following the second really big guy, so that means that the ducks have nothing to do with the boat leaning when the really big guys got on."

I was thinking that all the dead were kind of inconsequential as well before, and that most of the weight was coming from Hood himself since he's such a badass dude. However.. I got thinkin' just a few minutes ago. How much more badass is hood than is Draconus? so if the strain WAS just from Hood, when Rake killed Drac, wouldn't it have had the same kind of affect? So now I'm thinking it had to be from the souls of the dead as well. That kinda sucks. It takes away some of Hood's badassery

[Mcflury]

There is also the possibility that Hood's weight (and Rake's weight for that matter) were just the proverbial drip that filled the bucket. you know, without Hood's weight Rake had no problem (or no noticeable problem anyways) to carry the sword, but with Hood in it, it just became too much. Not because Hood himself was giantly heavy, he just was that one kilo too much while Rake could only handle another 0.01kilo.. (or pound too much while Rake could only handle another 0.01pounds, if you prefer this measurement).

This of course is not a theory most Hood lovers will like because it inclines their favorite (ex)God isn't necesairly too great at all (to expand my metaphor: it could well be, if my theory is correct, that Hood only weighed like 0.02kilos/pounds).

Ah well, I personally still like to believe Hood wasn't that heavy at all, it's just the dead army (which followed Hood of course) that made Rake buckle under the weight. Why then was Rake so heavy when he came in? A fresh theory springs to mind as I type this:
Pearl muses somewhere in TtH that only the good of the souls remain chained in Dragnipur, the bad part of their souls goes straight to the Chaos chasing them. Now, let's take Pearl for example: a major demon, probably a bit more evil than good, so he shouldn't weigh that much to Dragnipur since he'll mostly be chaos (which we assume has no weight at all since it technically doesn't exist). Draconus: same thing, mainly bad, so not too much weight either. Then we come to Rake. Rake was a badass guy, but in his true core was a very good person, never did something for himself, did everything for his people and even others too. That's why, when Rake ended up in Dragnipur, a huge weight comes down: Rake has barely any part of his soul that goes straight to Chaos and thus the biggest weight of his soul goes to Dragnipur and thus remains its weight.
How then about Hood? Well, Hood was a freaking God of death, one can imagine him not having a too pure soul. As a result Hood himself doesn't really weigh that much to Dragnipur. What does weigh that much, however, are the dead people following him. How come? Simple: the dead are pure.

Even though my last theory seems flawed (I mean, it must be, I cannot possibly believe I have just stumbled upon a truth ) I'll leave it at that and post it anyways, perhaps some of you can point out where my theory is flawed and perhaps even can correct it.

PS: I wondered this, about Hood, ever since reading TtH: now that all souls will be released from Dragnipur, so too will Hood... will Hood still be God of Death then? Or has he truely retired and will he now... dunnow... no longer partake in the story?

[Grief]

I believe he will still be in the story, but not in his old role.
I like your theory.

Also, the weight pretty much cant all be from Hood.
Think of all the people he has killed with that sword. Dragons, Gods, Draconus etc. Plus all those that Draconus has killed. Its existed for hundreds of thousands of years.
Many of the people in there, or at least a few, are probably more badass than Hood.

Now, yes, Rake alone weighs a lot. But he is certainly pretty powerful. Also, he has a closeness with KG, the blood of Tiam. He is also worhsipped, which may count for something, even though he denies it. His presence is spoken as having a weight anyway, but he controls it. Considering all the factors, its possible he stopped controlling it once there. Relieved another of his burdens.

Also, I reckon Draconus probably was quite heavy.
But if he=hoods weight, that still means Hoods weight DOUBLES an all-ready rather heavy sword. Quite considerable.
Although considering all the others in there, I doubt its just those two that are quite heavy.

[Jude]

haha definitely not just those two, which is why I was saying it can't be just hood who is making the sword that much heavier. It's gotta be all the souls of the dead as well, which again sucks because it lowers the dramatic validity of Hood being killed by Rake. But oh well, what can yah do?

Mcflury I like your theory except that I'm having trouble drawing the same lines between good and evil as you did. Pearl for instance: I'm pretty sure he was a good dude in GotM too. He's not a demon in that he's spawn from hell, he's a demon in that he looks different and isn't from Wu. he was still a pretty nice and thoughtful guy the whole time he hadn't been Dragnipured. Also, being the lord of death doesn't make a bro evil. It's like how everyone always mistakes Hades from Greek myth as a bad dude. He wasn't at all really. He was the brother who got the shit end of the stick when Zeus and his bros were picking their positions in the pantheon. He watches and rules the dead and people don't like him because he reminds them of what they hate the most and are most afraid of. It doesn't mean death is evil and it doesn't make Hood and Hades the malazan and Greek versions of Satan. Infact, Hood was showing more signs of good than evil in TTH. He helped Rake save the universe, he gave a good dude another chance at life because the dude was a genuinely good dude, and he was showing that he didn't want to rule the dead anymore because he didn't like how indifferent it had made him. Drac too, I'm not sure he was evil. He probably did some brutal things but I mean, who hasn't? He also tried to save the universe. With all that I'm not sure it had to do with souls being good or evil, but if you could find more to back this....

[Grief]

Well, I think the list of people who havent done anything drastically terrible, is basically Rake. I trust Gothos, because he seems a good judge. Now, he hasnt met everyone, but he gets around, and has probably met most of the massively powerful personages.

You could also argue Jude, that Elder Gods are not generally good, simply by merit(although possible not by their choice) of their power coming from Blood, and sacrifice.

"Elder Gods, it has been said, emobdy a host of unpleasantries".

Not a direct quote, but fairly accurate.

[amphibian]

Mcflury, on Nov 11 2008, 02:38 PM, said:

Why then was Rake so heavy when he came in? A fresh theory springs to mind as I type this:
Pearl muses somewhere in TtH that only the good of the souls remain chained in Dragnipur, the bad part of their souls goes straight to the Chaos chasing them. Now, let's take Pearl for example: a major demon, probably a bit more evil than good, so he shouldn't weigh that much to Dragnipur since he'll mostly be chaos (which we assume has no weight at all since it technically doesn't exist). Draconus: same thing, mainly bad, so not too much weight either. Then we come to Rake. Rake was a badass guy, but in his true core was a very good person, never did something for himself, did everything for his people and even others too. That's why, when Rake ended up in Dragnipur, a huge weight comes down: Rake has barely any part of his soul that goes straight to Chaos and thus the biggest weight of his soul goes to Dragnipur and thus remains its weight.
How then about Hood? Well, Hood was a freaking God of death, one can imagine him not having a too pure soul. As a result Hood himself doesn't really weigh that much to Dragnipur. What does weigh that much, however, are the dead people following him. How come? Simple: the dead are pure.

Draconus still breaks Ditch's neck - an evil act.

I believe the Chaos army was merely a dark mirror, instead of the actual evil component of each inhabitant of the formerly mobile Hold. Plus, why would Dragnipur be constructed in a manner that keeps the gate to Dark moving and feed Chaos at the same time?

Jude, did Hood ever actually say why he stopped being Lord of the Dead? I just re-read the Draconus conversation last night and all I could find was kind of brusque answers regarding the fate of the dead that showed some bitterness and weariness - not a statement of purpose.

[Jude]

hmm yeah I'm not thinking that there WAS a specific statement anymore either. I was probably just lead to that conclusion because of his, as you said, "brusque answers regarding the fate of the dead that showed some bitterness and weariness" If anyone else finds a better quote, feel free to post it here.

P.S. Ditch was being a little bitch. Let the dude tattoo your face, it's not a big deal, and if Drac supports it, it's possible it's for a very good reason. Draconus broke ditch's neck because it needed to be done. with that, it was not an evil act. It was a manly act. Draconus is pure, elder-god, masculinity.

[Sindriss]

well, we know that draconus had a legendary reputation of being cruel, which then has been tempered by being in the sword for ages. So I don't think the good=light, evil = heavy theory fits

[Aptorian]

There's no such thing as good or evil. We've never heard of Erikson putting any weight on such beliefs in the Malazan universe.

To start debating whether the moral deeds of one or another character would have a weight inside Dragnipur is just plain weird.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I consider some people to be evil, but probably only because I think they're dicks.

[Mcflury]

@Apt: Pearl talks about Good and Bad parts of their souls against Draconus in Dragnipur, in other words, SE does mention it. The only thing we can say for certain about this subject is that no character in MBotF is pure Good or pure Bad, they're all a mixture. But most of them tend to be a bit more of one side than the other side.

That said: it's very true what Jude says about Hood. I kinda realised that when I was typing my theory, but felt I shouldn't mention it because it would break the whole structure down So I guess this kinda ends my short-lived theory.
Still, I'm inclined to believe the weight suddenly inside Dragnipur has something to do with what Pearl said about Good and Bad and their relation to the Chaos and Chains in Dragnipur.

[Aptorian]

Good and evil aren't real forces. They're in the mind of the beholder. All though Cotillion did some speculation in BH we haven't heard of things like moral values being elements, or something you can draw on to give you strength, etc. Well, okay, there are some weird demons in the KB and B novels, but that doesn't count.

Somebody might be considered evil for cutting off all the right indexfingers of an enemy nations ablebodied men (example from Bonehunters) but the nation of the rulers is probably worshipping the guy as the herald of peace. We've never heard things like good or evil being connected with power. The crippled god isn't called evil, and he isn't. Likewise Rake isn't described as a good person, he isn't.

Power on the other hand is something you can measure and feel in the Malazan world. Rake's presence is like a weight on your mind and shoulders. Likewise Kellanveds power gives Tay a nosebleed in NoK. Now if the sould is the true reflection of the character, then naturally, the soul in it's purest form would be like a beacon of unrestrained power. That's why Hood and Rakes arrivals are felt with such force, it's these ascendants powers unleashed without restraint in the form of pressure.

And I still don't think the strain that Rake feels is true weight, rather it's metaphysical stress. If the sword really did excert the true weight of the things trapped in the sword, it would weigh thousands of tons. No matter what, Rake isn't so strong that he can lift a thousand tons. If he could, he'd have knocked Dassem straight across the continent the first time he swung dragnipur.

[Jude]

hahah yeah I'm pretty sure everyone in here can agree that the weight of Drag is metaphysical, Apt. It's just easier to use the word "heavy" when talking about it. Frodo wasn't all "Sam.... the Ring.... It's so.... full of power and putting a strain on my mind and soul."

I am more inclined to stick with that the weight didn't have anything to do with good or evil either, Mcflury, sorry. haha. But I'm also sure, like you, that there was probably more to Pearl's philosophising than a fun little thing to think about while reading TTH.

[Grief]

Aptorian, on Nov 12 2008, 04:54 PM, said:

Good and evil aren't real forces. They're in the mind of the beholder. All though Cotillion did some speculation in BH we haven't heard of things like moral values being elements, or something you can draw on to give you strength, etc. Well, okay, there are some weird demons in the KB and B novels, but that doesn't count.

Actually, I'd argue that Dessembrae could at least be able to draw some power(were he not denying his worshippers), and does draw a little power from the power of tragedy, which is not an element such as "fire" but more like "good" or "evil". Not exactly the same, but if you can draw power from tragedy, why not happiness, and such.

[Mcflury]

I never said good and evil are real forces. I merely suggested they perhaps are 'weighed' inside dragnipur and add to the overal weight (be it metaphysical or not) of Dragnipur of it. Of course, it was just a theory... one that has been proven rather flawed by now

Did the Bonehunters cut off index fingers of their enemies? I kinda missed that part then :s I thought they just found some index finger bones somewhere and used them as some macabre symbol of the army. Or am I now, by thinking they truely cut of their enemy's fingers, completely misunderstanding your second paragraph?

The metaphysical stress thing: okay, of course the weight isn't really weight that can be expressed in ounces, newton or kilo's. Pretty obvious it's metaphysical then. But what causes this metaphysical weight? Indeed, the main question remains... What caused Rake suddenly feeling all this stress upon killing Hood (who, as I remember it, even just gave up on his life in the first place, so it wasn't even the burden of killing such an innocent person that made Rake so stressy. It was more some kind of euthanasia). And how the hell does this metaphysical weight (which means it isn't really a weight, if I understand the term correctly) succeed in crushing houses? (and yes, I know not everything makes sense in these books, but it should be able to be explained up to some level, and I can't see how a level of stress can tear down a building or destroy a stone if it doesn't express some real physical force too).

Me confused now...

PS: don't underestimate Dassem, you can't know for sure he would be thrown accross the continent upon being hit by an object weighing 1000tons until it actually happened

This post has been edited by Mcflury: 12 November 2008 - 06:29 PM

[Jude]

Ok. My findings on Dragnipur:

The thing is that the sword's metaphysical weight (new favorite term) is constantly applying pressure to reality. Now when I say pressure I mean pressure in every sense of the word. It's an abstract thing that causes stress (mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, you name it we got it) to everything in the vicinity. As souls are added to Drag, the pressure increases. Now different souls apply different levels of pressure to the area near Drag. The relativity there is in how powerful the soul is. If the wielder kills a chicken, it won't have that much of an effect on how "heavy" dragnipur is. If the wielder kills Hood, the added pressure is immense. Likewise, if a hundred trillion chicken souls enter Dragnipur, the added pressure is also immense. Now the wielder also has the ability to reign in that pressure and focus it on him or herself. This is what Rake was doing for the entire series up until he killed hood and got this crazy ass mofo soul along with ten trillion souls of his little dudes in there. Ofcourse he wasn't doing it completely because when Drag was around in MoI and GotM, everyone felt it's presence in some way. However, after he sliced Hood up, he couldn't handle that much any more so he had to let even more out. When he released that force, in the form of the chains of smoke or whatever that came out of the sword, it exerted that very same all-encapsulating pressure on Darujhistan that I've been talking about. Karsa was all baring his teeth, Dev almost had a seizure, and the fires went out.

That, right there, is Dragnipur: Metaphysical Style.

[amphibian]

Jude, on Nov 12 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

Ok. My findings on Dragnipur:

The thing is that the sword's metaphysical weight (new favorite term) is constantly applying pressure to reality. Now when I say pressure I mean pressure in every sense of the word. It's an abstract thing that causes stress (mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, you name it we got it) to everything in the vicinity. As souls are added to Drag, the pressure increases. Now different souls apply different levels of pressure to the area near Drag. The relativity there is in how powerful the soul is. If the wielder kills a chicken, it won't have that much of an effect on how "heavy" dragnipur is. If the wielder kills Hood, the added pressure is immense. Likewise, if a hundred trillion chicken souls enter Dragnipur, the added pressure is also immense. Now the wielder also has the ability to reign in that pressure and focus it on him or herself. This is what Rake was doing for the entire series up until he killed hood and got this crazy ass mofo soul along with ten trillion souls of his little dudes in there. Ofcourse he wasn't doing it completely because when Drag was around in MoI and GotM, everyone felt it's presence in some way. However, after he sliced Hood up, he couldn't handle that much any more so he had to let even more out. When he released that force, in the form of the chains of smoke or whatever that came out of the sword, it exerted that very same all-encapsulating pressure on Darujhistan that I've been talking about. Karsa was all baring his teeth, Dev almost had a seizure, and the fires went out.

That, right there, is Dragnipur: Metaphysical Style.

Well... you've got the chains of smoke theatricals in the wrong order. That came before Rake killed Hood.

Hood's souls came the long way around - through the warrens. They didn't descend into Dragnipur with their god.

[Silencer]

Rake let off some pressure on himself to reduce the effect Hood's presence would have, perhaps? Or because he got lazy, knowing he had to die.

[Puck]

Padnul, on Nov 8 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

Another thing that's got me wondering. How did Draconus get Burns hammer, was Caladan Brood already in possesion of it when Draconus started crafting dragnipur? If so I find it hard to imagine he lent it out to Draconus because Burn quite unhappy with the hammering as described in the book. So I think it's safe to assume that Caladan or some other Burn groupie didn't give it up willingly.

I got the feeling that Draconus made the hammer and after fashioning Dragnipur gave it away to Brood [or Burn herself, since it's said in MoI that Brood got his hammer from Burn]. What makes this theory plausible to me is that the hammer is the only tool that can destroy Dragnipur, which is also mentioned in MoI. We sure all know stories in which a nasty weapon can only be destroyed by the tool it was forged with. Alternatively it only can be destroyed by the person who forged it [as seen in RG with Rhulad's sword, which shows that SE already has used this idea at least once].

On a sidenote.. If Dragnipur was that heavy [metaphysical weight, of course] that it could only be put down once in a while onto the stone in the temple of darkness [or wherever that was], how the heck did Rake sleep? With the sword stripped on? Did he sleep at all?
Just some random questions that popped up in my mind while reading this thread..

This post has been edited by Puck: 12 November 2008 - 11:13 PM

[Silencer]

I wouldn't put it past Rake to not need sleep.

He is more than 300,000 years old...so perhaps sleep is no longer a requirement for someone who is basically a god? Ammanas and Cotillion don't need food. In fact, I can't imagine someone like Rake sleeping.