[Azure Horizon]

I'm pretty much finished with TtH (only a chapter left or so), and I don't fully understand the concept of the Dying God. I know that it is Bellurdan, but I do not know how he came to be so powerful and why this God's influence spread so rapidly (even to rival that of the Crippled God).

Can anyone eloquently explain what/who the Dying God is?

[Aptorian]

Off the top of my head, working from memory, I remember that Belurdan started out by falling into the Abyss. In there he started eating up other things, taking their power and growing strong, like the seademon from MT. Then came the machine travelling through Chaos (maybe Iccy) which the Dying God hitched a ride on. The DG then proceeded to attract some followers. They partook of his body and he grew stronger. It would seem that through his worshippers indulgence in the kelyk he took from them their lifeessence and grew even stronger.

And that's about it.

I have to say, I didn't like the idea of the DG being Belurdan, it would have made much more sense, and been so much cooler, if it had been Hairlock that returned.

[Grief]

Aye, but maybe hairlocks being saved up for later *hopes*.
Anyway, all ive got to add is that, iirc, silverfox rejected that part of bellurdan.

[Azure Horizon]

Aptorian, on Oct 29 2008, 02:16 PM, said:

Off the top of my head, working from memory, I remember that Belurdan started out by falling into the Abyss. In there he started eating up other things, taking their power and growing strong, like the seademon from MT. Then came the machine travelling through Chaos (maybe Iccy) which the Dying God hitched a ride on. The DG then proceeded to attract some followers. They partook of his body and he grew stronger. It would seem that through his worshippers indulgence in the kelyk he took from them their lifeessence and grew even stronger.

And that's about it.

I have to say, I didn't like the idea of the DG being Belurdan, it would have made much more sense, and been so much cooler, if it had been Hairlock that returned.

I had a very, very strong inkling that the DG was Hairlock because I remember at one point in the encounter in Bastion, there's descriptions of "dolls" everywhere. Of course, in the next few sentences SE explains that it is Bellurdan. Which just confuses me.

[Sindriss]

Where is it suggested that the DG powers rivals that of the CG

[Azure Horizon]

Sindriss, on Oct 29 2008, 04:03 PM, said:

Where is it suggested that the DG powers rivals that of the CG

I'm inferring from how quickly the followers joined to the DG's cult. I'm not really saying that the DG is anywhere near as powerful as the CG.

This post has been edited by Azure Horizon: 29 October 2008 - 11:06 PM

[Sparkimus]

Agreed, as I was reading I tought it was a dead giveaway that it was Hairlock with the whole dolls thing. Why Bellurdan would choose to manifest himself in that way is a complete mystery...and I suppose it'll remain that way. Just one more of those things we have to accept for face value in the MBotF. Perhaps one day SE will sit down and write some memoirs to clarify some things.

[Moby]

Sparkimus, on Oct 29 2008, 06:06 PM, said:

Agreed, as I was reading I tought it was a dead giveaway that it was Hairlock with the whole dolls thing. Why Bellurdan would choose to manifest himself in that way is a complete mystery...and I suppose it'll remain that way. Just one more of those things we have to accept for face value in the MBotF. Perhaps one day SE will sit down and write some memoirs to clarify some things.

He manifested this way because he saw Hairlock gain power this way. I thought SE explained that fairly well.

[Diorj]

I just finished the book and was having trouble with the DG thing too. What was the machine he came in on, and where does all that kelk come from?

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Diorj, on Oct 29 2008, 06:45 PM, said:

I just finished the book and was having trouble with the DG thing too. What was the machine he came in on, and where does all that kelk come from?

Likely Icarium's machine from the end of Reaper's Gale.

[Aptorian]

Sindriss, on Oct 30 2008, 12:03 AM, said:

Where is it suggested that the DG powers rivals that of the CG

I don't think he did, but potentially he could have become very, very bad news. If the DG had consumed the Redeemer and then washed in over Black Coral it would probably had been the Panion Domin all over again.

[Traveller]

Bellurdan was forced out of the 'reborn' Silverfox, by Nightchill/Tattersail. Being a lost soul fragment in the Abyss drove him insane, and was what regressed him into a child-like form.

And as Apt said, he got stronger through eating other lost souls, until the machine with the unknown pilot swept him up in it's wake. As he'd seen Hairlock in the body of a puppet, he knew it was possible to soul-shift... that's what Tattersail did too. So he made a load of puppets, hoping to shift himself.

I think he became the Dying god as he fed off the aspect of people that seek oblivion through greed and addiction - death isn't the aim, it is the eventual inevitable result though. The Dying god provided his own blood - probably throught the plants first, which were harvested and found to be addictive - so more were grown, and the Kelyk got spread around, and more people got addicted. The dying process of his followers gave him more power, more blood.

Saemankelyk means blood of the dying god - I suppose that once drunk, some people (like Gradithan)were influenced by the DG to make more, refine it, and pass more on, becoming 'priests' to the DG (like the one's in Bastion).

The gods only get their power through worship, and I think it's mentioned that blind addiction isn't the form of worship, it's the desire to be escape reality by taking something that will make you oblivious to the real world. So the DG got stronger, spreading his own blood around.

But he's still only descibed as a child god, along with the Redeemer. THe DG's influence extends only across the area that Kelyk has been spread to - the CG in conparison is huge, appearing on different continents. And, he likes broken things like himself - the Dying god likes the dying process itself.

I might easily be wrong about all this, the plants are still a bit of a puzzle - but I'm pretty sure I'm not that far out.

EDIT check out the other thread on this...

This post has been edited by Traveller: 30 October 2008 - 08:58 AM

[Hinter]

Abyss gives a good explanation fo the whole kelyk thing here http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...c=13246&hl=
(sorry, dunno how to link this properly)

As for the the Bellurdan puppet thing, didn't Bellurdan bump into Hairlock in the abyss and that gave him the idea. I seem to remember something like that but it might be my imagination playing tricks on me....

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Is he dead? Or is Bellurdan the part of the DG inside Clip?

I wonder if Kadaspala's child-god may have ended up like Belly... Perhaps Kadaspala was working for a client...or he might have just been plain insane.

[cerveza_fiesta]

*agree* with the part about belly trying to achieve what hairlock did in becoming a puppet.

Another question I have though:

I remember reading a bit about how there was a stitched-together corpse once they got into the central temple in bastion, as though the DG had tried to make a puppet out of dead peoples' parts. I kind of got the impression at that point that maybe the scarecrows weren't just far-gone kelyk junkies, but attempts by the crippled god to make puppets.

Is there any truth to the above or am I on crack?

[Lisheo]

You mean the Dying God to make puppets And yes. Remember, he inhabited Nightchill's torn-apart body once before, and I would suspect that a torn apart body is preferable to a puppet body. It's possible that he had originally just been attempting to make himself a new body, but then as time went on he realised he could get Saemenkelyk from this procedure, and did it for that from then on.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Are the puppets those weird doll things hanging from strings?

[Jorram]

I think the mention of "child" god was implying that his mind worked like a child's. He was not entirely conscious, he was stupidly stubborn and hating, probably because of insanity. Remember, it was only a _REMNANT_ of Bellurdan's identity (*), not Bellurdan himself. It's only natural it would gone nuts and misinterpret Hairlock's ability to shift into that doll, so he became obsessed with dolls. He was a "child god" in the meaning of young god, as well, but all the mentions of "child" were, in my opinion, connected with this idea that his mind was childlike, uncaring, spoilt, you name it.


(*) This was spelt out by both Ardatha and Kallor. And btw, in MoI there was one moment where Sivlerfox suddenly behaved strangely confident and wise, and somebody thought of this being the Bellurdan's part of her, so it's not like he was rejected by Tattersail and Nightchill, at least this was never implied, in my opinion.

And btw Bellurdan didn't inhabit Nightchill's broken body. It was Nightchill herself who inhabited it and remained alive (soul-wise) enough for the soul-merging thing to work and create Silverfox.

[Traveller]

I think that Bellurdan showing up in the abyss demonstrates that he was never a part of Silverfox. Which is why Aranatha says that he was rejected.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

If that's true, no wonder Korlat wondered where Bellurdan was in MoI...

But why him, out of all the identities...