[Fener]

Shadow if you are not Sylar. Which I suspected you are along with D'riss and one or two others. Who are you?

[Omtose]

@ Liosan: He's alledgely recruited, so a personal victory condition is no longer in the equitation. Unless he has lied about that, too.
Also, what if a counter reveal is considered too dangerous by the counterrevealer, the real Matt?

Quote

Or he could send in a provisional.

There is the illegal Parkman targets Mockra provisional, and Gem stating that targeting yourself is illegal. If that goes for night orders, it also goes for provisionals, end of story. He says he tried this upon the reveal of Isaac, but it was just as illegal then as it was now, no?

Quote

Personally I think he is someone who knows, who doesnt want us(or perhaps just one or two people) to know who he is.
If he knows, he probably has a role of his own.

We're all roled, we all have knowledge, of our own role and winning conditions. As said, he is now recruited. He is a roleless inno now and used that for not turning in a provisional now to confirm his story. If he wants to, he has to wait a day and a night. He clearly doesn't want to wait, possibly because he is also recruited and thus has a victory condition.

Incidentally: Sylar takes 2 nights to absorb, and if Mockra spoke the truth, Company recruits 2 people a night. wowee, 4 possible recruits in the space Sylar absorbs 1 person. What do you think about that? It smells, Liosan, it smells. Badly.

I just don't think Mockra has the general wellbeing of us unaligned players at heart. More, if this is Claire, he will be close to victory as a company recruit. He will win when they do, whether he is dead or not. His sole defense so far against every single question has been: lynch emur, if I'm wrong, lynch me.
Hello, that's not evidence, that is not proof. That is getting the deed done, without any real punishment for he will keep his victory condition. He revealed finder, basically, but finders usually have more to show than what he did right now. Like a code...

He cites a PM he intercepted as evidence. If he read & received a PM, he can easily tell us what was in it, when he received it, and why he chose a PM by Claire to investigate in the first place. Notice how he NEVER mentioned coming forward with any of this. Notice also how Serc was adamant so far that he received no actions from Claire... or does Parkman get access to the general PMs we send to spoilerboard? That would be ridiculous.

Aside from that, Claire cannot suddenly change between players, she's going to be around or she gets killed, and if she is, we lost nothing but a killer lost a kill.
Let's get proof of what the liar is on about and why first, before getting laughed at in spoilers for fucking up.

Let's say, worst case, that Mockra somehow is Sylar and guessed Peter's identity. This could be one big fucking powerplay to force our hand and win tonight, and would circumvent any BPs Claire has right now by lynching her... and for someone who singlehandedly experienced a gazillion mutiliations in the series, I bloody well expect Claire to have BPs.

This post has been edited by Omtose: 31 October 2008 - 09:37 PM

[Liosan]

Not until ive heard from emurlahn.
In fact, if mockra could just admit who he is, or at least let serc know, I would be happier.

If it turns out emurlahn has an action, then yes, I will lynch mockra, happily.

I see where you're coming from, "if he lied once, its quite possible he lied again" but I just dont see why he would.

Also, as you can guess, I have to be weary when lynching, because I dont know who's in the company.
I just dont think emurlahn is. Call it gut.

Also, on a basic level, whichever we lynch will tell us about the other.
I would prefer to lynch the other, as opposed to the one claiming to be company.
Of course, its not just on that level, as there are many other things that make me think it likely that emurlahn is claire.

[Liosan]

Omtose, on Oct 31 2008, 09:35 PM, said:

@ Liosan: He's alledgely recruited, so a personal victory condition is no longer in the equitation. Unless he has lied about that, too.
Also, what if a counter reveal is considered too dangerous by the counterrevealer, the real Matt?

Quote

Or he could send in a provisional.

There is the illegal Parkman targets Mockra provisional, and Gem stating that targeting yourself is illegal. If that goes for night orders, it also goes for provisionals, end of story. He says he tried this upon the reveal of Isaac, but it was just as illegal then as it was now, no?

Quote

Personally I think he is someone who knows, who doesnt want us(or perhaps just one or two people) to know who he is.
If he knows, he probably has a role of his own.

We're all roled, we all have knowledge, of our own role and winning conditions. As said, he is now recruited. He is a roleless inno now and used that for not turning in a provisional now to confirm his story. If he wants to, he has to wait a day and a night. He clearly doesn't want to wait, possibly because he is also recruited and thus has a victory condition.

Incidentally: Sylar takes 2 nights to absorb, and if Mockra spoke the truth, Company recruits 2 people a night. wowee, 4 possible recruits in the space Sylar absorbs 1 person. What do you think about that? It smells, Liosan, it smells. Badly.

I just don't think Mockra has the general wellbeing of us unaligned players at heart. More, if this is Claire, he will be close to victory as a company recruit. He will win when they do, whether he is dead or not. His sole defense so far against every single question has been: lynch emur, if I'm wrong, lynch me.
Hello, that's not evidence, that is not proof. That is getting the deed done, without any real punishment for he will keep his victory condition. He revealed finder, basically, but finders usually have more to show than what he did right now. Like a code...

He cites a PM he intercepted as evidence. If he read & received a PM, he can easily tell us what was in it, when he received it, and why he chose a PM by Claire to investigate in the first place. Notice how he NEVER mentioned coming forward with any of this. Notice also how Serc was adamant so far that he received no actions from Claire... or does Parkman get access to the general PMs we send to spoilerboard? That would be ridiculous.

Aside from that, Claire cannot suddenly change between players, she's going to be around or she gets killed, and if she is, we lost nothing but a killer lost a kill.
Let's get proof of what the liar is on about and why first, before getting laughed at in spoilers for fucking up.

Let's say, worst case, that Mockra somehow is Sylar and guessed Peter's identity. This could be one big fucking powerplay to force our hand and win tonight, and would circumvent any BPs Claire has right now by lynching her... and for someone who singlehandedly experienced a gazillion mutiliations in the series, I bloody well expect Claire to have BPs.

Yes, and if mockra is sylar and we lynch him tonight, peter wins.
Also, you really think mockra will not be guarded tonight? We now the haitian is around, with perhaps action stopping abilities, although we dont know, and form the pictures, it seems hiro is a guard aswell.

[Shadow]

Fener, on Oct 31 2008, 05:34 PM, said:

Shadow if you are not Sylar. Which I suspected you are along with D'riss and one or two others. Who are you?

do a re-read.
I sent in my provisional and Serc confirmed me as CI (read: roled, factionless)
I'm not gonna reveal unless it comes to a lynch of me. I stated a million times why it would be a bad idea, and geve enough hints so that people can figure it out.

[Liosan]

I agree that the company recruiting is a lot, but, if you think about it, people can leave, just by losing powers(which in the company they wouldnt keep anyway) for a short time.
I would imagine that counters the amount fo recruits they get.

[Omtose]

Liosan, on Oct 31 2008, 05:37 PM, said:

Not until ive heard from emurlahn.
In fact, if mockra could just admit who he is, or at least let serc know, I would be happier.

If it turns out emurlahn has an action, then yes, I will lynch mockra, happily.

I see where you're coming from, "if he lied once, its quite possible he lied again" but I just dont see why he would.

Also, as you can guess, I have to be weary when lynching, because I dont know who's in the company.
I just dont think emurlahn is. Call it gut.

Also, on a basic level, whichever we lynch will tell us about the other.
I would prefer to lynch the other, as opposed to the one claiming to be company.
Of course, its not just on that level, as there are many other things that make me think it likely that emurlahn is claire.

I think you misunderstand where I am coming from. here's my reasoning in priority, notice that the lying part is way down the chain.

1. Claire is a brake on Sylar's victory condition. If we remove her, we lose tempo and Sylar gains it.
2. 2 recruits per night vs. 1 absorption/ save per night is unbalanced and smells of a powerplay by Mockra to lead us by the nose.
3. He never provided evidence for how he came by the knowledge and what the knowledge contained... when there should be plentiful and little risk in it. He had many good arguments to make that shows he is speaking the truth, not in the least by making this whole debate useless by showing that there is no risk to it, but he never gave those.
4. If he speaks the truth, I want Claire dead as much as he does when the company needs her gone so they can remove Sylar. But only when it is safe, and it isn't right now.
5. I don't trust liars.
6. He could be Peter and Emur Sylar and Serc could be wrong about posting times.
7. He could be Sylar, know Peter and Emur is Claire.

I think you are blinded by his admission that he is Company, just like you, and the lack of counterreveals. Heck, i could reveal as Bob Bishop, say i changed provisionals and he was never captured by me. Would you believe me, or would you want a reveal by Noah too, then?
Even if Mockra is in the same faction as you are, going for the same victory condition as you do, he can still be wrong by his timing; namely, that it is not safe to lynch Claire now.

[Shadow]

goddamit, i'm making pork chops in the kitchen downstairs.
this is the fourth time I'm coming up to get eggs, since I've been checking the thread every time. (EDIT: and getting distracted and forgetting why I went up)

I don't see what Mockra stands to gain by lying to our faces, unless he's sylar who thinks he pegged peter and he's making a HUGE gamble.
In which case, lynching him = suicide for the rest of us
if it wasn't for that last stalking provisional, I'd be inclined to think emu is Sylar.
then it makes sence that Mockra's pushing for his lynch. and Omtose could then be Claire, pushing for a Peter Lynch, since that would makle it a "lose-lose" for the unaligned.
but that damn "stalk emur" provisional ruins everyhting...
bah, I'm off to cook, back in 15.

This post has been edited by Shadow: 31 October 2008 - 09:50 PM

[Fener]

Shadow, on Oct 31 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

goddamit, i'm making pork chops in the kitchen downstairs.
this is the fourth time I'm coming up to get eggs, since I've been checking the thread every time.

I don't see what Mockra stands to gain by lying to our faces, unless he's sylar who thinks he pegged peter and he's making a HUGE gamble.
In which case, lynching him = suicide for the rest of us
if it wasn't for that last stalking provisional, I'd be inclined to think emu is Sylar.
then it makes sence that Mockra's pushing for his lynch. and Omtose could then be Claire, pushing for a Peter Lynch, since that would makle it a "lose-lose" for the unaligned.
but that damn "stalk emur" provisional ruins everyhting...
bah, I'm off to cook, back in 15.

Is Mockra really pushing for the lynch? Or does he want Emu night killed/vigged?

Got a few dangerous folk out there now: Hiro, Nikki and Sylar. I am guessing they can all kill. Scary.

[Omtose]

Fener, on Oct 31 2008, 05:51 PM, said:

Shadow, on Oct 31 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

goddamit, i'm making pork chops in the kitchen downstairs.
this is the fourth time I'm coming up to get eggs, since I've been checking the thread every time.

I don't see what Mockra stands to gain by lying to our faces, unless he's sylar who thinks he pegged peter and he's making a HUGE gamble.
In which case, lynching him = suicide for the rest of us
if it wasn't for that last stalking provisional, I'd be inclined to think emu is Sylar.
then it makes sence that Mockra's pushing for his lynch. and Omtose could then be Claire, pushing for a Peter Lynch, since that would makle it a "lose-lose" for the unaligned.
but that damn "stalk emur" provisional ruins everyhting...
bah, I'm off to cook, back in 15.

Is Mockra really pushing for the lynch? Or does he want Emu night killed/vigged?

Got a few dangerous folk out there now: Hiro, Nikki and Sylar. I am guessing they can all kill. Scary.

He's pushing for a lynch, not a kill.

[D'riss]

Unfortunately lads, I must be off now.

Cheers. Will be back before deadline so will not vote now.

[Fener]

Omtose, on Oct 31 2008, 09:52 PM, said:

Fener, on Oct 31 2008, 05:51 PM, said:

Shadow, on Oct 31 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

goddamit, i'm making pork chops in the kitchen downstairs.
this is the fourth time I'm coming up to get eggs, since I've been checking the thread every time.

I don't see what Mockra stands to gain by lying to our faces, unless he's sylar who thinks he pegged peter and he's making a HUGE gamble.
In which case, lynching him = suicide for the rest of us
if it wasn't for that last stalking provisional, I'd be inclined to think emu is Sylar.
then it makes sence that Mockra's pushing for his lynch. and Omtose could then be Claire, pushing for a Peter Lynch, since that would makle it a "lose-lose" for the unaligned.
but that damn "stalk emur" provisional ruins everyhting...
bah, I'm off to cook, back in 15.

Is Mockra really pushing for the lynch? Or does he want Emu night killed/vigged?

Got a few dangerous folk out there now: Hiro, Nikki and Sylar. I am guessing they can all kill. Scary.

He's pushing for a lynch, not a kill.

His vote is the only vote and he certainly has not pressured me to join him (which I wont). Does he honestly believe he will get the lynch or is he hanging the bitch out to dry?

[Omtose]

Ask him . But he's been mentioning lynches, not kills.
I guess since Claire is probably equiped with BPs, the best way to get rid of her is through a lynch.

As for getting people, he 'just' needs a majority, not all of us, of course.

[Liosan]

Omtose, on Oct 31 2008, 09:48 PM, said:

Liosan, on Oct 31 2008, 05:37 PM, said:

Not until ive heard from emurlahn.
In fact, if mockra could just admit who he is, or at least let serc know, I would be happier.

If it turns out emurlahn has an action, then yes, I will lynch mockra, happily.

I see where you're coming from, "if he lied once, its quite possible he lied again" but I just dont see why he would.

Also, as you can guess, I have to be weary when lynching, because I dont know who's in the company.
I just dont think emurlahn is. Call it gut.

Also, on a basic level, whichever we lynch will tell us about the other.
I would prefer to lynch the other, as opposed to the one claiming to be company.
Of course, its not just on that level, as there are many other things that make me think it likely that emurlahn is claire.

I think you misunderstand where I am coming from. here's my reasoning in priority, notice that the lying part is way down the chain.

1. Claire is a brake on Sylar's victory condition. If we remove her, we lose tempo and Sylar gains it.
2. 2 recruits per night vs. 1 absorption/ save per night is unbalanced and smells of a powerplay by Mockra to lead us by the nose.
3. He never provided evidence for how he came by the knowledge and what the knowledge contained... when there should be plentiful and little risk in it. He had many good arguments to make that shows he is speaking the truth, not in the least by making this whole debate useless by showing that there is no risk to it, but he never gave those.
4. If he speaks the truth, I want Claire dead as much as he does when the company needs her gone so they can remove Sylar. But only when it is safe, and it isn't right now.
5. I don't trust liars.
6. He could be Peter and Emur Sylar and Serc could be wrong about posting times.
7. He could be Sylar, know Peter and Emur is Claire.

I think you are blinded by his admission that he is Company, just like you, and the lack of counterreveals. Heck, i could reveal as Bob Bishop, say i changed provisionals and he was never captured by me. Would you believe me, or would you want a reveal by Noah too, then?
Even if Mockra is in the same faction as you are, going for the same victory condition as you do, he can still be wrong by his timing; namely, that it is not safe to lynch Claire now.

1. Yes, but who can we lynch instead? We have someone claiming to know who claire is. If they are right, who do we lynch: We lynch peter, sylar knows who claire is, and wins. We lynch claire: Sylar has a chance of knowing peter, but not as much a chance of knowing claire. We lynch sylar: Peter wins. Personally, I find claire the lowest risk, and putting it off is just going to lower the numbers in the suspect pool.
2. Yes, it seems unbalanced, except sylar gets their powers. And people can leave the company, fairly easily.
3. He didnt provide evidence. I dont know why. Im not him. Ask him. Personally, I tend to think its cause to do so would mean revealing, although id be happier if he could confirm his innocence/whatever using provisionals with serc, or a reveal.
4. I cant see it getting safer. The company are probably in as good a position as they re going to get. Yes, we could wait for there to be less suspects. Thats less people for sylar/peter to choose out of, to find their rival.
5. No, I dont trust liars. But I cant see why he would do it without telling the truth about claire, because he just draws attention needlessly. Emur was already being looked at, and had a decent case by barghast.
6. I think Serc will probably have been careful, and made sure his times are fairly accurate/reliable. Also, as you have argued, you cannot action yourself. Sylar has stalked emur already. Emur is not sylar.
7. Yes, he could be, but we have to lynch claire first, for reasons ive stated, and waiting will just lower the suspect pool. If we lynch him, and he is, peter wins.

I am not blinded, I am trying to look logically.
We have to hit claire first, because if we dont, and hit peter or sylar first, peter wins, or sylar knows/is pretty certain who claire is. I am not saying he is correct.
I just think that the longer we wait, the riskier lynching claire will become, and we have to do it at some point, or so I think.

[Fener]

You are assuming we want the company to win though. They want Claire dead then they want to kill Sylar then Peter.

[Liosan]

I am assuming I want the company to win.
I had to gain a win condition, and managed to attract a company recruitment.
The others have nothing to gain from me, as I have no power.
What do you think the chances of one of them getting me are? Small.

[Liosan]

Also, the game will not go on long if we hit sylar while claire lives, so most people will not have a chance to be recruited.
If we hit claire and sylar, it can go on for some time.
I am assuming we dont want sylar to win, because his recruitment involves death.

[Liosan]

Aye, well, suit yourself...