[Seguleh 1st]

and if that would not be so, why should the rope simply retreat after rakes threat against ST?

[Aptorian]

Because possible death and the loss of the hounds wasn't in their plans. They didn't want Rake gone as he was a possible ally in the fight against the CG. We learn in DG or HoC that shadow intended to smuggle cotillion in the form of sorry into the midst of the Panion empire where he would most likely had assassinated the Panion Seer.

[Grief]

Fighting in the shadow realm, is fairly irrelevant.
Also, we seem to be treating rake as some sort of skill-less, powerhouse.
In GotM, his mage fight with tay etc, is indiscriminate, to try and get them to back off.

But, somehow I doubt the prime mage of the Andii is lacking in the area of skill, and just throws easy to dodge indisciminate magery around.

Also, if he used all his power, he could probably make it VERY dark. Even him just being there does that, but if he made it so dark that ST and Cotillion couldn't see whereas he can, that makes up for any slipping in and out of shadows stuff.

Not only that, but if they can slip in and out of shadows etc, im pretty sure he can do exactly the same thing with darkness.

Rake is more powerful as a mage, and with the millions of years he's had, I doubt he's truly been careless enough not to hone his skills to a sharp point.

ST is great at manipulating things, and Cot is a fine assassin, but in a straight fight against Rake, even with the hounds, I doubt they'd beat rake. Also, since dragnipur is 1 hit kill, if a hound got him, it'd still be dead fairly fast.

Also, about Cot being willing to fight Icarium, the way he says it suggests he doesn't expect to win. Its more just a "do my best/hope, buy some time" type thing.

[Andirak]

We're (at least I am) so hung up on Rake being a swordsome swordsman him being a skilled mage easily fades into the background. I doubt he was unleashing his whole power at Pale as well, and there certainly wasn't much focus in it.
With all his years millenia he should have mastered KG, and that warren dragons use. I'd have liked an instance of Rake pwning something with just his warrens. How did he defeat Kilmandaros again?

[Grief]

He takes her down into an azath.
Considering her size, I doubt its purely by sword, particularly if he uses dragnipur.
Same goes for the three dragons, sources of warrens all, which he pwns, simultaneously, yet without using dragnipur. So, sorcery is likely.

Personally, id say that 3 eleint are more of a threat than the hounds, and certainly have more magical power than anything ST has.
In fact, isn't one of them the warren he uses?

[Burned Tear]

I think that Anomander Rake was the greatest mage and swordsman of all time, Dassem only helped him kill himself. That said, he's gone now, he is now the gate of darkness, replacing Mother Dark as a God. So his power is no longer focused. Reading through these posts i'm incredibly surprised you guys mention Beak so much, yeah he's cute and has a great story but technically speaking he is not that powerful, all he did was make a shield ONCE and died with the effort. Also, i'm shocked that nobody has mentioned Endest Silann the High Mage of Darkness, who held back the sea and then resisted the Dying God's assault for so long without a warren to draw upon, only a memory of a river. Subsequently, he's dead too. So from what we know, the most powerful mage i assume means alive? Also you must realize Shadowthrone's raw power, in RotCG they say how he would "wipe away city walls with a wave of his hand" and that was when he was mortal. Obviously he is more powerful now. Also on the note of QB's raw power, remember at the end of RG? He swats Silchas Ruin, Rake's brother, out of the air (with a little help from Fiddler and Hedge but i think he could have done it alone) as well as throwing mountains and whatnot. So i would place Shadowthrone and Quick Ben as the highest, Tayshrenn is gone for now, and he struggled with a rent and ritual mage, something I think Quick Ben would have solved better. I'll let you guys argue that now

side note: K'rul is not the god of magic, he merely built a road to make the pre-existing magic accesible to more people.

[Aptorian]

Rake is dead. Deeeeeeeaaaad. He's not replacing Mother D. because he's deeeeeeeeaaaad!

While every other mage is exhausted Beak is juggling multiple warrens, hiding soldiers and laying the smack down on the K'risnan, in the end he protects the marines from a magical ritual that had been building for a week and consumed the mages that made it. We're talking the same destructive force that destroyed the Edur villages and killed thousands of Edur in MT. Of course the obvious counter argument is that Beak used his own lifeforce, sacrificing himself, to stop the wave.

And magic flows through K'rulls flesh, he says himself in MoI that he could interfere with magicwielders but chooses not to. Of course if K'rull decided to become some kind of magical tyrant he would probably be brought down by the gods... somehow.

[Seguleh 1st]

quite impertinent, newbie. j/k

no, really, we argued about the mages being alive, with some reasonable exceptions now and then. to this exceptions we count of course rake or kuru quan, cause they are very powerful. and if you read this threat precisely, im quite sure that we discussed ST somewhere, too. but anyway, how the hell did you get the idea that rake replaced MD as god of darkness?

edit: dammit apt was faster

This post has been edited by Seguleh 1st: 26 January 2009 - 05:36 PM

[Mcflury]

@Burned Tear (don't feel like quoting his text, it's rather big):

1) 'We' don't bring up Beak that often. mainly I do. Beak is my most awesome mage ever, and I also believe he is the strongest mage ever. I'm quite shocked seeing Apt now defending Beak too. I guess he likes Beak a lot too, and has been agreeing with me on the Beak thingy all along. High five Apt! BEAK FOREVER!! (but yes, Apt is right, Beak has indeed stopped that edur magic that none other could stop (not even QB by the way, he needed a silly God to help him, and I don't care about sizes of shields, since both were probably equally big) but the main reason why Beak is so great is because at that time every freaking mage on letherii that had seen some action was completely exhausted, burned up, incapable of doing more than sleeping; while Beak (who had been doing double shifts constantly, and had to fool off Letherii a lot more often than all the other squads together) was quite fresh and active. Beak ruled, and he is the greatest ever)

2) ST: Kellanved was a pretty strong mage indeed, but for some reason the Crimson Guard are more affraid of Tay than they are from Kel, so I'm pretty sure Tay was actually even stronger. Thousands of happenings in the books can show you Tay's awesomeness of course. ST himself is a god, it'd be rather silly if he wasn't stronger than basically any mortal. But yes, ST is probably one of the stronger gods out there indeed.

3) QB is a sissy. I just don't really love him that much (mainly because everyone else does love him a lot and I like to be stubborn and thus dislike him) and so I will never admit he is the strongest. In terms of pure power he probably even isn't all that strong. QB's strength lays in the fact that he is pretty smart and sneaky and manages to strike just at the right places at the right times. He's the kind of mage who shoots up earth at dragons in full flight to tackle them, probably damaging them more because of the fall instead of his magic; Tay for instance is the kind of mage who would just shoot up some crazy fucked up fireball at the dragon, turning it into nicely baked dragonmeat (+5 health when eaten). Also, I don't think QB would've done better than Tay at the rent in RotCG. What was needed there was pure power. Tay brought that pure power, and had a cunning plan on top if it too. I don't think Qb would've been able to do better ROTCG SPOILER

Spoiler

(except perhaps that Isha wouldn't have been so eager to jump on QB as she was on jumping Tay because Tay is an old Guard enemy and QB isn't.)

4) Welcome to the boards

And as a last statement: Beak is definately IS the greatest mage ever. Fuck sake, he could enter TELLAN!!! HE'S HUMAN!! NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO DO SO!!! anyhew, if it isn't Beak, it must be Tay.

[Grief]

Im not sure beak should be judged on the same level as others. The candles are essentially sources of power. Rituals. Its not just him accessing a warren like everyone else, he's bolstered by the ritual of the candles.
He has the candles etc. Could he do as much without?
Could he access the stuff without?

Also we see

Spoiler

That priest use KG. Worship is different access than use. I reckon without his candles, he couldn't use Tellan

Oh, and Rake could mess with some magic users. He couldn't however, cut off the magic. He merely shaped what was there before(I say merely, still damn impressive). Anyone, such as the dragons, other EGs, Rake, Osserc etc, could still use it.

Its in their blood.

Consider:

Mael is the sea god. He controls his warren. Why the hell would K'rul be able to control other EGs warrens. Makes no sense.
I reckon certain people have it in their blood. Its mentioned Rake does. The dragons do.
And even if he did mess up some warrens, the greatest mages could still shape chaos.
His warrens are stable, always the same, easy access. But even if he took them away, the more powerful could still use.

[Aptorian]

Beaks candles aren't litterally "candles". They are a metaphor for his warrens. It's how he see's them. Probably his first teacher (The Fenn?) saw that he was a simple kid and he decided that it was easier to help Beak if he gave him a way to picture the warrens.

Beak can access everything it seems, both house and hold warrens.

[Mcflury]

What Apt said... I'm kind of wondering what made you think Beak had actual candles he needed to lit or something. If you genuinly thought that, sure, I can see why you think Beak isn't that cool... But as Apt said, the candles was just how he saw accessing a warren, but what he in reality did was just the same thing any other mage did...

Oh, and Beak can sniff out magic... not a thing most mages can, and even those who we've seen doing it (besides Beak) are never a 100% sure of their work.
Ah well, I think I've already given enough reasons why Beak is the greatest mage ever. Still not convinced? Pittyful, wish there was more I could tell you to proove you 'wrong'.

[Grief]

There is another thing that diminishes Beak, and QB, in my eyes, compared to Tay etc.
If you're powerful/skillful enough, you don't need a host of warrens to something.
IMO, its less impressive of QB to achieve something using half a dozen warrens that Tay could have achieved with one. Just shows he's less masterful/competent, in my eyes.
So yes, I think that more warrens doesn't necessarily equal more power, if you're against someone skillful. In fact, past a point, I doubt it helps at all.
QB is more powerful a bit by having more warrens, but if someone more skillful with one warren unleashed to the same level, I reckon they'd win.

[Grief]

Mcflury, on Jan 26 2009, 07:46 PM, said:

What Apt said... I'm kind of wondering what made you think Beak had actual candles he needed to lit or something. If you genuinly thought that, sure, I can see why you think Beak isn't that cool... But as Apt said, the candles was just how he saw accessing a warren, but what he in reality did was just the same thing any other mage did...

Oh, and Beak can sniff out magic... not a thing most mages can, and even those who we've seen doing it (besides Beak) are never a 100% sure of their work.
Ah well, I think I've already given enough reasons why Beak is the greatest mage ever. Still not convinced? Pittyful, wish there was more I could tell you to proove you 'wrong'.

Tattersail sees Anomander Rakes magical aura from miles away.

Many mages can sense nearby magic. Sniffing it is just his particular method.

Candles:

If you have to stop and visualise, and the other mage just needs to wave his fingers, they're at an immediate advantage.
Metaphor or not, that doesn't matter much. My point was more in the ritual of him needing to have the candles. The candles just seem a way of transfering the energy, through the candles, rather than himself. Which is how he visualises things. This also seems risky, as it doesn't seem a very controlled method, visualising the candles as controlling the energy rather than yourself.

As fpr accessing unacessible warrens, I reckon that could be to do with belief etc. Most mortals don't seem to bother to try accessing them. His visualisation says he can, so he goes with that. Im not sure they are massively inaccesible, since if you go far back enough in other warrens you reach them. But no one seems to try. They just dismiss it as "impossible". I recall someone saying that, at the root of warrens are KG/SD. Go far enough into any warrens, that's where you'll wind up.

Idk, but im not really convinced that the racial warrens are all that inaccessible, there has to be exceptions, people with more Imass mindsets or whatever...

[Mcflury]

Grief, on Jan 26 2009, 08:46 PM, said:

There is another thing that diminishes Beak, and QB, in my eyes, compared to Tay etc.
If you're powerful/skillful enough, you don't need a host of warrens to something.
IMO, its less impressive of QB to achieve something using half a dozen warrens that Tay could have achieved with one. Just shows he's less masterful/competent, in my eyes.
So yes, I think that more warrens doesn't necessarily equal more power, if you're against someone skillful. In fact, past a point, I doubt it helps at all.
QB is more powerful a bit by having more warrens, but if someone more skillful with one warren unleashed to the same level, I reckon they'd win.

I agree with you on this matter. I too find QB a bit more sissy-like because he always needs to access multiple warrens at the same time to get his shit done, while other mages indeed can do it nicely enough with only one warren.
Beak however does not fall under this category. Sure, he can access all warrens, but only one at a time, else he'd burn up (which eventually happened when he accessed all his warrens at the same to save his friends. The only reason he died there was because he opened accessed them all at the same time.) so Beak uses his multiple warrens in (quick) succession of each other.

This post has been edited by Mcflury: 26 January 2009 - 08:02 PM

[Silencer]

Arghwareafjdlkjkldbjalksjdf.

How many times. Beak's defeating of the Edur ritual is pointless. QB could have done the same thing. IF HE WANTED TO BE EMO AND KILL HIMSELF. He found a way to do it without destroying himself. Simple. (Not the same ritual, btw, as the Letherii one was out of control...)

Also, being able to meld several warrens seemlessly together (as he does against Bauchelain who is mightily impressed that QB can weild that many let alone make them reinforce each other), takes skill all of its own. Also, who is to say that QB can't do what Tay did with one warren? All QB does is use several (thereby not using as much power in one), rather than exhausting his warrens one after another. I'll grant you, after RotCG, I will admit that Tay now has the biggest display of combat magic. QB still has the second biggest.

Oh, note also that several mages (most notably the Trygalle) can access Tellann, they merely didn't out of respect to the T'lan Imass. Use of Tellann does not make Beak better, only a less respectful little so-and-so.

[Grief]

Silencer, you have just made a fairly ridiculous point .

QB himself says he's "used up" after using the warrens versus Bauch. So, why use up 6 warrens to achieve something you could achieve with one. Its a stupid waste of power.

It takes skill. But QBs skill from the warrens he has is because the souls had it. Once you've been given the warrens, and the power/control of the souls over them then using them together is just co-ordination. Takes some skill, but not massive amounts.

My favourite bit about QB isn't his power, its his intellignce.

[Silencer]

True - but QB was deliberately testing his limits at the point in time.

^juvenile retort...but still true.

[Grief]

If he was testing his limits, why not do it a way with less risk than attacking the necros.
Like blasting rocks from a quarry.
Or other random, not so dangerous, stuff.

So that cant be the reason.
Unless of course, you're trying to say QB is stupid

[Silencer]

Stupid...no.

Brave, courageous, and powerful? Of course! (I love how brave can so easily be a synonym for stupid...)

>.>
<.<

But wasn't that the whole scene? QB sneaking into the city to test his limits, spying the necro's estate, Talamandas going WTFBBQAREUINSANE, and QB proceeding anyway?