[Sinisdar Toste]

yeah scabby stabbed ruin and then set out for the azath he could sense to the south

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I remember the House-maker was in a pit, and he said those trying to attack him "could not climb the sides." How's that exactly?

[Traveller]

The 'pit' was a sort of bowl shaped depression, on top of a rocky pinnacle. I think. That's why Nimander nearly fell down the side, and the ones below couldn't get up there. The builder was in the pit at the top.

And yes, I think Ruin was carried to the azath - couldn't quite remember the details.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 December 2008 - 12:22 PM

[Hoods_Balls]

I was pretty sure taht when Nimander&co/ along with Kallor ran into Gothos, he was not in an Azath, it was a Jaghut tower, elso Kallor would probly not have entered.

Also fairly sure time is not distorted in the Azath...it is meaningless, it ceases comletely, hence the reason they took Chaur to the Finnest house to stop him from dying.

The lether azath was not just there to hold ruin...it was already there, and also held the toblakai gods.

[D'rek]

Hoods_Balls, on Dec 31 2008, 12:12 PM, said:

I was pretty sure taht when Nimander&co/ along with Kallor ran into Gothos, he was not in an Azath, it was a Jaghut tower, elso Kallor would probly not have entered.

Gothos revealed later that it was an Azath, but either almost dead or dormant, with Gothos indicating he could awaken it. Kallor didn't realize at first that it was, and so promptly fled when he found out.

Hoods_Balls, on Dec 31 2008, 12:12 PM, said:

The lether azath was not just there to hold ruin...it was already there, and also held the toblakai gods.

Who knows when the Pack or the Seregahl or any other resident of the Lether Azath were interred. It was fairly young when Scabby was put in, as Osserc said that putting Sheltatha in a short time later could strain it...

[Hoods_Balls]

D'rek, on Dec 31 2008, 01:59 PM, said:

Hoods_Balls, on Dec 31 2008, 12:12 PM, said:

I was pretty sure taht when Nimander&co/ along with Kallor ran into Gothos, he was not in an Azath, it was a Jaghut tower, elso Kallor would probly not have entered.

Gothos revealed later that it was an Azath, but either almost dead or dormant, with Gothos indicating he could awaken it. Kallor didn't realize at first that it was, and so promptly fled when he found out.

Hoods_Balls, on Dec 31 2008, 12:12 PM, said:

The lether azath was not just there to hold ruin...it was already there, and also held the toblakai gods.

Who knows when the Pack or the Seregahl or any other resident of the Lether Azath were interred. It was fairly young when Scabby was put in, as Osserc said that putting Sheltatha in a short time later could strain it...

You mean Ruin* right?
True there is no way to tell when the tarthenal gods were interred, but as an elder race i assume very long time ago.

[D'rek]

Yeah that's what I meant...

[bhok'arala]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Dec 8 2008, 02:18 AM, said:

I remember the House-maker was in a pit, and he said those trying to attack him "could not climb the sides." How's that exactly?

I took it as not a basin but more of a volcano. he had to build the building tall becuase there was no room to go outwards and althought he was a giant (being what, 3 times his height?) this wouln't make him more than four times his width so a small basin in diameter indeed. this describes a basin yes, but it would have to be very deep in order for slipping to happen. of course, it doesn't seem Nimander could climb out of a volcano either.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

bhok'arala, on Jan 1 2009, 11:07 AM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Dec 8 2008, 02:18 AM, said:

I remember the House-maker was in a pit, and he said those trying to attack him "could not climb the sides." How's that exactly?

I took it as not a basin but more of a volcano. he had to build the building tall becuase there was no room to go outwards and althought he was a giant (being what, 3 times his height?) this wouln't make him more than four times his width so a small basin in diameter indeed. this describes a basin yes, but it would have to be very deep in order for slipping to happen. of course, it doesn't seem Nimander could climb out of a volcano either.

I get this impression too.

Do you think the BotA seems to comprehend the purpose of that which he builds? Trapping entities of great power?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Ok, so Gothos obviously either has some control over the Azath, or is an agent of them. If he is an agent of them, is it possible he is also a Nameless One? Or maybe their leader or something. I know we have next to no information on the NO's but they seem to work for the Azath, and they get their marching orders somehow. Since we haven't seen any that are actually in an Azath, and Gothos can travel around all of them (and possibly even leave them since the Azath tower he's in in TTH is not active). This might also help to explain why the Nameless Ones are trying to use Icarium as a tool. As his father, Gothos would know all about Icarium and his power. And Gothos definitely seems like he would have no problem being an asshole and making that decision. Recall how he treats Nimander and Skintick, and also that he didn't seem to care about prisoning Raest despite there being some relation between the two (although I guess that could be chalked up to Raest being an asshole). If this is actually the case it could set up an interesting battle in the last couple of books between Gothos and ST/Cotillion for control of the Azath, or at least a further effort to expunge the NO's.

[Roldom]

didnt icarium get his rage and amnesia when he tried to free gothos from the azath, not knowing that gothos was happy where he was

[Harvester]

I think he's able to travel around via the Azath, because as we know, he also is the guardian of the Deadhouse (Malaz City). That's where Fid&friends met up with him in DG, at least.

A slippery fellow that one.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 02 March 2010 - 12:25 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

WJD makes a good point i think, about gothos being the leader of the NO's. when fiddler and the gang crash the deadhouse party in DhG, gothos states outright: "my sons rage is a poison, he must be imprisoned" which is what the NO's wanted mappo to do.

[Aptorian]

Nonsense.

Just because Gothos was seen inside an Azath and he once stated that his son needs to be stopped, doesn't mean that it is logical to jump to the conclusion that Gothos is a part of the NO or the leader of them.

Gothos is a rather scrupulous, extremely powerful ascendant Jaghut. I find it much more likely that he couldn't care less about the machinations of the NO, it's just a bunch of mortals thinking they can have an effect on the cosmos, when Gothos in fact is manipulating the fabric of the Azath systems.

Look at Spite and how easily she was manipulating a powerful group of these NOs.

[Sinisdar Toste]

but up until the path of hands mappo and icarium seem to have been wandering hither and thither without any sort of pressure. maybe gothos doesn't have any role in the cult, i guess, being a jaghut, he wouldn't want to. but he could have manipulated the NO's - just as spite did - stepped in for a time and pushed them towards the idea of tremorlor, then stepped back and hoped for the best

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Aptorian, on 02 March 2010 - 08:14 AM, said:

Nonsense.

Just because Gothos was seen inside an Azath and he once stated that his son needs to be stopped, doesn't mean that it is logical to jump to the conclusion that Gothos is a part of the NO or the leader of them.

Gothos is a rather scrupulous, extremely powerful ascendant Jaghut. I find it much more likely that he couldn't care less about the machinations of the NO, it's just a bunch of mortals thinking they can have an effect on the cosmos, when Gothos in fact is manipulating the fabric of the Azath systems.

Look at Spite and how easily she was manipulating a powerful group of these NOs.

Well, I leave the conversation about Gothos' scruples or lackthereof for another day.

But he wasn't just seen inside an Azath one time. You make it sound like he was Fiddler using it to cut across a few continents for expediency. With the exception of the MT prologue we've never seen Gothos outside of the Azath. He also seems to control the builder of them (through right or just domination we don't know) and threatens Kallor with reawakening a dead Azath and imprisoning him. The NO are the only group associated with the Azath in the series. I don't think its a logic defying leap to hypothesize that they are working together, or at least on the same side.

Now, that being said, it is entirely possible that the NO's are just cultists with no special connection to the Azath other than worshipping them. I'm not ruling that out. But I think there are too many connections to just write off the possibility of some kind of alliance as absurd.

[Urizen]

Sinisdar Toste, on 02 March 2010 - 06:03 AM, said:

WJD makes a good point i think, about gothos being the leader of the NO's. when fiddler and the gang crash the deadhouse party in DhG, gothos states outright: "my sons rage is a poison, he must be imprisoned" which is what the NO's wanted mappo to do.

Where does it come up the the NO's want Iccarium imprisoned in Tremolor? In TBH and RG they seem to be into utilizing Iccy as a "offensive weapon". While their actions in TBH could been seen as a result of Mappo "failing" them at Tremolor but Veed never seem to be in on some inprisonment scheme.

[Sinisdar Toste]

im not saying veed was. remember mappo's thoughts about what he perceives as the NO's about-face in tBH? until that point the NO's had wanted to have icarium pacified. by a guardian, and then when the opportunity came up, tremorlor. i mean, they didn't directly influence mappo and icarium to go to tremorlor, at least, i dont think they did, but they would have very much wanted icarium to be taken by the house at that point. then their strategy changes, presumably because they heard about rhulad and the tiste edur empire and decide to throw the two at each other. mappo sees this as evidence of upheaval in the cult, possibly caused by sister spite who is the only survivor of releasing dejim nebrahl.

[Baudinsballs]

Um. I've gotten this far page 414. paperback.

Did I read right? Gothos is Raests daddy, which makes Raest Iccys brother/halfbrother?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Baudinsballs, on 19 March 2010 - 12:41 AM, said:

Um. I've gotten this far page 414. paperback.

Did I read right? Gothos is Raests daddy, which makes Raest Iccys brother/halfbrother?

Perhaps. Gothos just calls Raest one of his "more obnoxiously arrogant offsrping", so it could mean like grandchild, or possibly just be talking about Jaghut in general, but I'm with you in thinking Raest is Gothos' son. And yea that would then make Iccy his half brother (Icarium's only half jaghut while Raest is full remember).