[Silencer]

Who created the creator?

Often, when debating the merits of religion, I find that you reach an impasse:

Say that I was on the side of the Big Bang. People often say: "Where did the matter come from, what created the matter?" The implied answer is God, in case you didn't catch that.

I have tried, several times, to reply: "Well then, who created God?"

The answer is, invariably, "He was always there. He's God!"

So...if God could have always existed, why couldn't the matter? And, if the matter had to be created by God, who created God?


...obviously, once one of you decides to answer "X created God", I will respond, "Who created X?", but that's the point. I'm curious as to the reactions of the people who believe in God, more so than the reactions of those who don't, but either chipping in would be fine.


(This is also the test thread for the religion group - if you de-rail it too much, they'll get their own forum)

Have fun!

[Giles]

I think it basically boils down to the fact that infinity is a hard concept to grasp, generally we can think in terms of very long time or very big but trying to picture something with no limits is difficult to do, so a mechanism is created to make it easier to imagine in the human mind.

[frookenhauer]

Interesting question, but I'm going to wait until the real believers answer this, I don't count because I'm just anxious, er, agnostic, both.

[Macros]

This is generally my rebutal to christians who demand to know where we came from
I say, I dont know and they say "see, it was god"
I reply, "where or where did god come from?"
"uh," ~splutter~ "he was always there! hes omnipotent"

...........

indeed

[Grief]

Its turtles all the way down...

[caladanbrood]

God came from nothing. It's kind of the point

[Macros]

if he can do it why cant others?

[frookenhauer]

/unbelievers comments. (Although that was a very, very good point Macros)

Where have all the believers gone?

[Aptorian]

Well, if god exists, what about all the other gods? If I started believing in gods of the heavens then I'd also have to believe there was a thousand gods in india, and a bunch of raving lunatics in scandinavia and a bunch of blood gods in South America, etc. etc.

Now which one of these do you think should have the credit for making the earth?

[Grief]

Aptorian, on Oct 18 2008, 09:10 PM, said:

a bunch of raving lunatics in scandinavia

I thought we proved this, mianly due to the existence of morgoth, and a few others....
Oh.
You meant gods?

[Silencer]

@Brood - that is exactly what I'm saying. If God came from nothing, why not the universe!?!??!

Hence, the impasse. Where is Gem and suchlike?

[Bhurnae]

Grief, on Oct 18 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

Its turtles all the way down...

Once you get past the Heffalumps...............

[Grief]

Well, that goes without saying

Edit: On topic:

If nothing created matter, where the hell did it all come from. It cant have just came from nothing, Im not saying its god, just that how can there be a beginning, if matter cannot come from nothing(and, although im not great at physics, I cant see how it could), then it must always have been there. Thus, no beginning.

Wrong, I suspect...

This post has been edited by Grief: 18 October 2008 - 10:06 PM

[caladanbrood]

Grief, on Oct 18 2008, 11:04 PM, said:

Well, that goes without saying

Edit: On topic:

If nothing created matter, where the hell did it all come from. It cant have just came from nothing, Im not saying its god, just that how can there be a beginning, if matter cannot come from nothing(and, although im not great at physics, I cant see how it could), then it must always have been there. Thus, no beginning.

Wrong, I suspect...

I can't multi-quote using the pda skin, but...
This is a problem with or without a god in your personal universe-view. Something came from nowhere, whether its god, or everything else.

@maccy - who says they can't. We don't necessarily have to be talking about a christian god do we? If you believe in a pantheon with more than one, then more than one did, according to your beliefs

[frookenhauer]

The problem is that we all think linearly in terms of time. Here's a scenario for you, it might not be original, but I'm claiming it until some enterprising person tells me where I stole it from. God is born/created/happened far in the future due to some crazy cosmic alignment or somesuch. As he is omnipotent he can travel through time at will and he realises that he is the universes creator and has start off the whole creation thingy and goes ahead and kicks off the big bang. It is immaterial whether god came first or not due to his amazing omnipotency. Thoughts?

[Bhurnae]

Thats a good get-out...........wait.....why does he need to bang anything if he is from the future?

This post has been edited by Bhurnae: 18 October 2008 - 10:30 PM

[caladanbrood]

Thoughts? I think if I wasn't drinking, that would give me a really bad headache...

[frookenhauer]

Bhurnae, on Oct 18 2008, 11:29 PM, said:

Thats a good get-out...........wait.....why does he need to bang anything if he is from the future?

Because he's the creator of course. If he doesn't bang the universe it doesn't happen and then he will fail to materialise and so on. Your doing the whole linearity thing .

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter if god came first or last, all that matters is that he exists, if he exists.

Ahh, now my head is starting to hurt

[Bhurnae]

but he is in the future so he doesnt need to go back...............anyone got any Anadin??

[frookenhauer]

His omnipotence means that the concept of future and past is irrelevant. Linear time-wise he is born in the future, but in gods understanding of time he is first. he has a look round sees that he's got to do the whole creation thingy and according to some enterprising individuals who wrote this book he's got seven days to do it in, and he certainly managed to do more than that Craig David. Anyway he goes back to the origin of time and kicks off the big bang, then travels through time applying floods and plagues and burning bushes and generally has a ball.