[Darkwatch]

See Aristotle for answers.

[Grief]

frookenhauer, on Oct 18 2008, 11:39 PM, said:

Bhurnae, on Oct 18 2008, 11:29 PM, said:

Thats a good get-out...........wait.....why does he need to bang anything if he is from the future?

Because he's the creator of course. If he doesn't bang the universe it doesn't happen and then he will fail to materialise and so on. Your doing the whole linearity thing .

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter if god came first or last, all that matters is that he exists, if he exists.

Ahh, now my head is starting to hurt

Ok, assuming we're talking about an omnipotent god, then time is meaningless.
Does he need to create the universe instantaneously as he is created, to stop himself de-materialising? Or can he leave it until later. Since he exists at all times, then he could surely create it at any time he wants. Therefore, he can leave it until last minute. Just before the end of the universe. Therefore, since he can do it just before the end of existence, and time, he doesnt have to do it at all, because the universe is about to pop out of existence anyway. Since he doesnt have to do it, the universe can come from nothing.

Feel free to pick holes in it, im sure there are some.

[Lisheo]

Thats even considering a deity like that would view time the same way we do. You can view it as a straight line. But a god that knows all? If there is a truly onipotent God, then he exists everywhere, at all times, and thus can create the universe while creating himself, from whatever "time" he wants.

[frookenhauer]

Ah but at some point he MUST do the creation, so WE can be here to glory in his existence. I mean its no good doing great deeds if no-one is around to marvel at your brilliance. I mean this is the guy that ended humanity leaving just Moses and Co., he needs a fanbase. But really dude, the hole in the logic is when you jumped from whether he waits until the end of time to do it and not doing it at all. This is all very confusing and I'm not sure if the word logic can really be applied here.

here is a normal person type example that might explain it.

You wake up on Saturday. You get ready to go out in the evening. You go to the cash point to get some money. You enter the club and pull and get laid.

If you are god you can just move to the time when you're in the club and you get laid. But it does not mean that the other events did not take place and if they do not ever take place, you as god don't get laid. It does not matter when, in your when, it happens, its just gotta happen.

Nurofen needed now!

[Silencer]

But your whole argument is impossible (I know, I know, it's God and all that...)

At some point, there must be a situation in which there was nothing. You can't say that "there was something, then God was born, and he went back and created that something" - it tricks itself.
It's like twin teleporters, dropping you each time into the other one. At some point, you had to enter the first one, but after that you keep going back and forth between the two. There is still a point at which you entered the teleport.

My point is this: if you say that God was created, and that before him there was nothing, I say: why couldn't it just have been nothing and then matter, why need God? If you say that God always existed, then I say: why couldn't matter have just always existed?

But at least the discussion has taken off a bit!

[bubba]

I couldn't answer that question . Even if I wanted too(and I would want to if I could). It's a logic loop and you know it.

How am I as a Christian supposed to know this? It's not written anywhere, and your question couldn't be answered by anyone on this earth.

I think as a test thread Silencer my friend, I think I have to say this is a fail...sorry. And having a test thread to begin with defeats the point your aiming at. As long as this area is under the camera, no one is going to misbehave.

Sorry if I'm kind of all over the place with this. I have been non stop with work for 20 days. VERY tired.

[Silencer]

I've just been waiting for you lot to make one...and got bored of waiting.

The point is, I want to know if people think God was created, or if they back up the "He was always there" argument.

[bubba]

Silencer, on Oct 19 2008, 12:00 AM, said:

I've just been waiting for you lot to make one...and got bored of waiting.

The point is, I want to know if people think God was created, or if they back up the "He was always there" argument.

read my post in what's messing with your groove...............


...and how do you define "always" would be my response....... do you get what I said in my first response to this thread?......

This post has been edited by Bubba: 19 October 2008 - 04:10 AM

[Silencer]

Yes, I get it. It's an impossible question to answer. Hence why it becomes an impasse. :smile:

[Bent]

Ok, I have an answer for you, but I can't be certain its the correct one, I take it on Faith, which of course is the belief of something without having scientific evidence it is true. Kind of like explaining why water quenches our thirst, why? It just does. Having said that you have to use the only reference humans have available (in a Christian sense, others may disagree based on their religious pretense, but I use the source available to me.)

In the bible God speaks to Moses and says "I am the great I AM". He tells Moses to tell Pharoh to release his people because the one who is commands it.

I AM is a really big statement, it means that God is. Everything. Past, Present and Future. He is and always was if you will. No one created God. He just was. Let me try to be a little more descriptive. If you have a thought about something, did you create the thought, or did it just come to be....I think that several people would say that WE created that thought. But I have to disagree, we would have had to think abut the thought, before we thought it. Kind of hard to do, since thinking about the thought, still requires thinking and so on and so forth, so actually, that first one, that single spark that flicked a switch in our brain to make us think, just came to be.

I believe God was the same way. He was just there. hanging around, if you will, and said. Hmmmm, I think I will make light, so he did. No telling how long he waited to say"let there be light" But he did. I think thats what he meant then. He wasn't made, he just...IS. When you think about God you think in terms of logic. But thinking about God logically isn't possible. You have to think WAY outside the box, to wrap your mind around the concept of God. God, isn't matter, he doesn't have mass, he doesn't think bout how to do things, he just does things. Omnipotence is a very key term here, it means that he has no beginning, and no end, he is not just time and space, he is everything in between and more. HE IS. It pretty deep when you really ponder it. It makes you feel tiny and insignifigant when you look at it from a believers perspective, God is everything you know and don't know. Thats alot to fathom.

Like I said I can't prove this, but thats why its called faith. I believe it so it is true to me.

[Silencer]

Ahhh...finally.

A very good answer, Bent. Possibly the best I have heard.

Did you ever consider, then, that perhaps God is a bit like Mockra? The voice, the mesh holding all things together? Is it possible, that God is just a manifestation of your imagination? NOTE: I'm not saying that God doesn't exist, what I'm saying is that, if he did exist, is it conceivable that the 'experiences' people have of him, are not real, in a way. Gah, it's really hard to get across. But hopefully the Mockra analogy helps explain what I'm saying. In this way, God always was. However, he doesn't actually manifest, save for the ways people believe?

[frookenhauer]

Silencer, on Oct 19 2008, 04:34 AM, said:

At some point, there must be a situation in which there was nothing. You can't say that "there was something, then God was born, and he went back and created that something" - it tricks itself.
It's like twin teleporters, dropping you each time into the other one. At some point, you had to enter the first one, but after that you keep going back and forth between the two. There is still a point at which you entered the teleport.

Nice image with regards to the teleporters and you've nailed my argument to the cross...Or have you? Its now after six and Bernard Hopkins kicked Pavlics arse all over the ring and now I'm going to bed.

To be continued

[Bent]

Silencer, on Oct 19 2008, 01:07 AM, said:

Ahhh...finally.

A very good answer, Bent. Possibly the best I have heard.

Did you ever consider, then, that perhaps God is a bit like Mockra? The voice, the mesh holding all things together? Is it possible, that God is just a manifestation of your imagination? NOTE: I'm not saying that God doesn't exist, what I'm saying is that, if he did exist, is it conceivable that the 'experiences' people have of him, are not real, in a way. Gah, it's really hard to get across. But hopefully the Mockra analogy helps explain what I'm saying. In this way, God always was. However, he doesn't actually manifest, save for the ways people believe?

No, I don't think so, I believe you are tring to say, that if no one believed in God, he would no longer exist, I think its the opposite in fact, if we stopped believing in God (as a whole, meaning NO ONE ON EARTH believed) WE would no longer exist. Becaue our purpose in being created(to worship God) would then be meaningless, and therefore so would we. It wouldn't be because God was mad, it would be more like a coffee pot that has no electricity, you throw it away, because it can't be fixed.

If thats not what you meant, and you meant, that God doesn't manifest to non-believers, I also disagree, I think that God manifests MORE to them, than say to me. I have made my desicions, he doesn't need to manifest to me any more, (the fact that he does anyway, just makes me love him more) however, its threw ones who don't believe that he tries harder to reach, for example, We both come to a road it forks. I as a believer, choose to go right, you look at both roads and contemplate the best choice for you, a ray of sunlight reflects off of something shiny on the road to the right, so ou decide to investigate, its a simplified version of manifestation, but in the end God chose to make the sun reflect off of the shiny object and gave you a beter reason to go to the right where as he knew I would choose the right road because I already knew whic road leads where. (I have a map if you will). Doesn't always mean I go on the right roads, just means that I will eventually get to where i am supposed to be and you may travel in circles, God's manifestation (the shiny object) is his way to try to help you get there.

If that wasn't what you meant, clarify, I am not the smartest person when it comes to the books(I enjoy them, but don't obsess like some people, lol) Off for a while, I'll be back to talk more.

Edit: Frookey's...nailed my arguement to the cross ref, is a reason why I don't visit here, and see the point of a seperate group, to me its a deeply offending statement and while I feel my opinion isn't legion, I get pretty annoyed at that crap.

~The only non-profit organization is atheism(Get it? lol)

This post has been edited by Bent: 19 October 2008 - 05:26 AM

[Silencer]

Haha, nice, lol.

No, I didn't mean that God wouldn't exist if people stopped believing. Rather that he is not necessarily an entity. He is, as you said, everything. If that is the case, any interaction with God is not real. While it may be 'real' in regards to, with your metaphor, choosing the right path instead of the left, the actual 'voice of God' is not a consciousness. It's something that is created by the believers. It's a weird argument, and irrelevant to me, but you get the point.

You say that God tries harder to communicate with non-believers...why? Does he want me to believe? I've made it quite clear, in my own head (talking to myself, not God ), and out loud to my friends, that I would begin believing in God if he...say...struck that tree over there with lightning right now. So why not do that? Why not start talking to me? If he wanted to, he could. And then bang! He's got a new believer. But he doesn't.

I can see why Frook's comment might offend you, to me, of course, it was just a casual remark. Of course, your reaction does tend to add to the "religion is sacrosanct" kind of thing. But, for future reference, no casual remarks like that, frookie.

[caladanbrood]

Silencer, on Oct 19 2008, 04:34 AM, said:

My point is this: if you say that God was created, and that before him there was nothing, I say: why couldn't it just have been nothing and then matter, why need God? If you say that God always existed, then I say: why couldn't matter have just always existed?

I think you're missing the point of faith, again. Yes, it's possible that matter could have always existed, though current scientific thinking strongly opposes that. But the idea of faith is simply a belief that there is some sort of god in existance who in some way guides or creates it...
Can it be proved? No. Does that matter? No.

The instantaneous creation of a god from nothing is no more a rebuttle to faith than the instantaneous creation of a universe from nothing is a rebuttle to science... though I do hate the way this forum turns all these discussions into science vs faith, when the two are almost entirely compatible with each other, so I don't really want to encourage that by pointing it out too much...

This post has been edited by caladanbrood: 19 October 2008 - 11:24 AM

[Grief]

There is also another important point, which Bent kind of brought up in a round-about kind of way, with his whole "he is not matter" thing.

If God created the whole system, there is no reason he should be inside it, or its rules as we percieve them.

[Vicodin&FantasyBooks]

God for me is manifested in the interaction of human beings. Thus he is everyone and everything.

That's my interpretation of spirituality at least.

So in a way - we created God when we became sentient enough to feel the need for a God.

Other events similar to God in human development are the need for love beyond sexual gratification the need for artistic expression.

(That is also my reason to believe that we will always need God and spirituality no matter what the current trend is and will come back to Him like we come back to art and love. But we will also recreate His image with every generation just like we recreate art and love.)

Some people tend to equate all that to God - make Him the ultimate reason for everything good in the world.

Although love can exist without spirituality involved and artistic expression is not necessarily religious by nature.

For me God is what gives me a valid reason to believe that humanity is more valuable than the rest of life on Earth for example - because the interaction that we create between us is unique to this planet - that the capacity of every single human being is far greater than that of any animal.

God also gives me a reason to believe that the mentioned capacity and potential will eventually not be wasted on creating trivial things like the next IPod or PSP but there will still be enough people involved in sustaining and evolving humanity.

God is my subjective and completely illogical reason to believe that humanity is worth something even if the outside world may constantly strive to convince me otherwise. In that train of thoughts I believe that everyone has at least a little bit of that God in them.

***

tl:dr

God for me is the beauty of human interaction. We created Him and we define what His image is and what He means to each one of us.

Quote

Where have all the believers gone?

They're probably sick and tired of arguing theism on the terms of scientific thinking. God is not a logical event to begin with. All that talk about omnipotence flat Earth and a pit of molten lava underworld should have given you a clue already.

In simple words God may be the only thing on Earth that cannot be translated into math and that's a very important part of understanding what God is to believers.

It's a cultural event to me - it's a psychological event to many of the rest. Going any further than that to 'explain' God in my opinion is wasting your time.

Quote

Nurofen needed now!

It's actually ibuprofen, Nurofen is just one of the more common brand names.

But yeah, as far as I see from this thread you're all doing the logical thing. Do you remember a time in your childhood when the Bible (or another religious book) was first presented to you? It was most likely in the form of stories wasn't it. They certainly didn't give you a flow chart algorithm of your religion. And now that you've supposedly entered the 'age of reason' and you've been for several years schooled into the ways of scientific thinking, you're trying to apply those methods to religion, because that's how you've been taught to think.

That's the only method that you trust but do you certainly believe that logic is the only valid method and humans can exist in a state where they are driven purely by logical decisions?

Ok let's talk science if you're so inclined - what about your brain's other hemisphere.

This post has been edited by Vicodin&FantasyBooks: 19 October 2008 - 03:21 PM

[Bent]

Silencer, on Oct 19 2008, 01:38 AM, said:

You say that God tries harder to communicate with non-believers...why? Does he want me to believe? I've made it quite clear, in my own head (talking to myself, not God ), and out loud to my friends, that I would begin believing in God if he...say...struck that tree over there with lightning right now. So why not do that? Why not start talking to me? If he wanted to, he could. And then bang! He's got a new believer. But he doesn't.

Deep thought coming prepare yourself....

What if I am the metaphorical tree falling right now. No, I am not God, but people ask for signs all the time. Why can't my presence be that particular sign? I say this because if you believe in God, you don't really believe in coincidence(especially coincidences that are really eerie). 2 Instances, for you.

First this one, Last week at work we were discussing(we consisted of me a preacher and a deacon, both are my bosses) if God is omnipotent, does he know every decision we are going to make before we make it. They say yes, I say no. Long story short, I believe that would take away free will, they disagree, they think he knows, and still loves us enough to allow some of us to choose hell. Anyway, it was this conversation where I first learned about the great I AM quote in the bible. This was 2 days before I read the thread. Had that convo never happened, I never would have been able to contribute to your convo, thus, maybe God wanted me to answer your question, to help you along the right road, I am your shiny object this time around if you will. Who knows, not me, but again, faith is a crazy thing.

Scenario 2 - My mom had some medical problem, she had smoked for 40 plus years and an artery in her neck became 90 percent blocked, causing dizzy spells etc, she could have had a stroke, but they did surgery in time, and she was fine. Due to this she stops smoking, My dad still smokes but respects mom enough to go outside. Flash forward 2 years, I have a nephew that is autistic, this nephew decides while my brother is taking a shower, to unlock the back door, using a chair to reach the lock(he's autistic, but borderline genius at certain things, he has memorized every single sponge-bob episode ever made, word for word, its quite amazing.) Anyway he unlocks the door and starts to walk over to y mom and dads house which isn't too far. But Dad has a pool, above ground, there is a fence and gate around it, but my nephew can reach the latch. He proceeds to take off his socks, and heads for the pool. At this instant my dad is in the house watching football, and gets his usual urge to smoke, he heads out back, sees my nephew taking off his socks, and intercepts the boy, before bad things could happen.

If my mom hadn't nearly died and quit smoking, my nephew surely would have, to me thats affirmation of a higher power. Thats too big to be coincidence, I imagine things like that happen to everyone all the time, to me its evidence, the tree faling right now, I guess.

[Vicodin&FantasyBooks]

Yeah Bent, but what's important is how far are you gonna go in your belief to trust God to set things right.

No matter how strongly you may believe you still 'help yourself' first and leave faith for the times when you yourself are helpless.

So you explaining your nephew's story is not really an example of a method you use to lead your life but more so an example of a method you use to justify the presence of God.

For me a belief is only valid when it is set to help you along with your life. Maybe you need reassuring that everything's gonna be alright with your family and that's fine.

I personally need reassuring that humanity at all is worth something. That's partly because I'm used to seeing death I've had quite a lot of anatomy training and even though I'm not gonna be a doctor per say I respect that but also acknowledge that an individual's life is extremely frail.

More so in a multi-billion world each individual's role strongly diminishes. So why do I as a medical student need to help people.

Am I only obliged to physically sustain my patients or do I hold a part in something greater. That's what I ask myself at the end of the day, because during the day I need very little reason if at all to help someone. Just seeing a fellow human being is enough - but after that I ask myself if I'm not merely postponing the inevitable and I have to believe that the person I helped is at least capable of development and capable of using the rest of his life in a way that will benefit other people.

Because if it isn't so then my role is merely as maintenance in an endless cycle.

In a way it's futile to be spiritual or an idealist in such a down to earth profession. Well I guess that's the only affirmation that I require from religion - that humanity will keep on no matter what. That there have been better times and there will be such again. That the present is the best it can be and the worst at the same time and it only depends on me to make a difference in it.

[Gem Windcaster]

It is simply hilarious that people that find it natural that life can appear randomly, out of nothing, have a problem with a being existing before everything else.

And that's all I'm going to say on this matter.