[Jude]

Was anyone else a little hesitant to go along with the fact that Andii characters kept saying that the pain of the Imass was as nothing compared to the Andii and that the redeemer wouldn't be able to handle them? I mean to me, the Imass had lost alot more than the Andii had. They didn't just lose their home and their mom. They lost their mortality, and everything that went with it. They lost the ability to feel anything that let them know they were alive. The contrast with how they once had been and were as T'lan Imass, I think, is made very evident and very drastic in Onrack's becoming mortal again and the changes he goes through when that happens. It seems to me that the Tiste Andii's only big reason for having more pain than the T'lan Imass was that the Imass just put on a braver face about their plight than the sissy Andii did, and that the Andii were an older race and more hardcore looking, so that justified it.

[Lisheo]

The Andii are an incredibly emo race. I imagine them all as My Chemical Romance fans, with Rake being the only guy who listens to death metal, trying to whip them up into actually living.

The Andii, it must be said, are not supposed to exist on Wu. Light is anathema to them, so every day under the sun must be agony. They are cut off from their natural element, darkness, their home warren, and their God. They are dying out, slowly, and are scattered across the world, only one of their leaders still known to be alive, and even he is only half Andii now.

Although I agree, the Imass have a lot more on their plate

[Sindriss]

Well, you should remember that from what we know, the Andii are a lot older than tlan imass.

[Lisheo]

Ive been thinking about that, and Im beginning to think otherwise now. Or at least, if they are, their problems started around the time of the T'lan Imass.
We can assume that Tiam died last around the time of the Andii leaving Kurald Galain, or at least it wasn't too far from then, I dont think.
The only way to become a Soletaken Eleint is to drink Tiam's blood.
Olar Ethil is a soletaken Eleint Imass, so she must have partaken of Tiam's juices at some point, and as Imass are not generally immortal, although Im not sure if being Draconic would give her that, the Ritual must have happened soon after.

[Giles]

Lisheo, on Oct 18 2008, 11:15 AM, said:

Ive been thinking about that, and Im beginning to think otherwise now. Or at least, if they are, their problems started around the time of the T'lan Imass.
We can assume that Tiam died last around the time of the Andii leaving Kurald Galain, or at least it wasn't too far from then, I dont think.
The only way to become a Soletaken Eleint is to drink Tiam's blood.
Olar Ethil is a soletaken Eleint Imass, so she must have partaken of Tiam's juices at some point, and as Imass are not generally immortal, although Im not sure if being Draconic would give her that, the Ritual must have happened soon after.

Yes but we know that mages generally have a much longer lifetime so we can assume the same can be said for bonecasters, especially when you take into acount that kilava is still around and isnt T'lan

[Lisheo]

But Kilava got her immortality from the cave painting Onrack drew of her and even so, the longest lived mage we've got a definate age on is Tattersail(Although I suspect Baruk is much, much older, but hes an Ascendant), and shes about 300... So even then its only maybe plus 500 years, which is nothing when we're talking about these timescales.

[Aptorian]

The ritual of tellan is about 300.004 years old as of TTH, The Tiste Andii have been exiled on Burn for someplace between 400.000 to 500.000 years. That's half a million years of immortal misery. And unlike the T'lan Imass the Tiste have nothing left that drives them, they just exist... there's nothing more for them. They didn't even care about who they were fighting in the war against the Malazans, they just thought because Rake asked them to.

As for Olar Ethil and her soletaken nature. Olar ethil isn't just an Imass, she's an Elder God in the form of an Imass. She's the First Soletaken, Draconean Guardian of the Beast Hold, Twin to Tiam in form, she is to the T'lan Imass what Osserc is to the Liosan and Killy is to the TTT or the FA.

[Osric]

Well imo the tlann imass always seemed to have a bit more of a collective will, they just seem to switch off sometimes. And like it was said before the imass have a goal, a purpose, and not really a lot of cause for pain, well except being dead forever and looking a bit disgusting. The tiste andii are very emotional and miss their mum, and have been doing that for nearly a million years, a million years without purpose gets to people.

I do agree it's a bit presumptuous to say that the tiste are in so much more pain, a little bit emo as well.. I'm in more pain than you are! *wallow*
Overall I'm not really a fan of the tiste andii, they all whine a bit too much for me instead of getting on with it, not saying I don't understand why but I don't really like it that much. At least the Imass are being awesome killing people all the time for no apparent reason usually (well there is but usually not to the people getting killed).

Most of the story about Andii characters is about them feeling bad about stuff in the past, that's just what they're like and that's probably why they're in so much pain and why they suffer from mass apathetic..ism. Not really like the Imass at all, theyre more like, hey I've been in a mine for about THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND YEARS, and I finally got out... What to do.. What to do.. I know! Kill a jaghut in the azath!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Well, they did lose MD...but they now have her back so I don't believe the Andii's sorow is insurmountable now.

Perhaps the Andii were just being xenophobic, and didn't wish the Redeemer to effect a change upon them.

[Blend]

Lisheo, on Oct 18 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

But Kilava got her immortality from the cave painting Onrack drew of her and even so, the longest lived mage we've got a definate age on is Tattersail (Although I suspect Baruk is much, much older, but hes an Ascendant), and shes about 300... So even then its only maybe plus 500 years, which is nothing when we're talking about these timescales.

Of course he's older. Don't you remember when Mammot was telling Crokus about the history of Darujhistan? Through TtH we find that Barruk, Mammot, Derudan, Vorcan, and whoever else have been around since like forevAR!!!!! At least since the last Tyrant, which means that Baruk has GOT to be much older than 500 years.

[Lisheo]

I was going from Hinter's convo with him in TtH, which suggests that Baruk and the T'orrud Cabal may have been the people who pulled down the CG.

[Blend]

Lisheo, on Oct 20 2008, 06:55 PM, said:

I was going from Hinter's convo with him in TtH, which suggests that Baruk and the T'orrud Cabal may have been the people who pulled down the CG.

Woah, quotes? I never got that impression of them at all!!!

The CG was pulled down by mages in Jacuruku, not the T'Orrud Cabal... Even so, if they were the ones who pulled the CG down, then Baruk is still MUCH older than Tattersail.

This post has been edited by Blend: 20 October 2008 - 07:04 PM

[Lisheo]

Quote

Pg 549 in my version
"The Fallen God is a most unwelcome complication"
"The legacy of messing with things not yet full understood - of course, those precipitious sorcerors all paid with their lives, which prevented everyone else from delivering the kind of punishment they truly deserved. Such things are most frustrating, don't you think?"
Baruk's gaze narrowed on the ghost in the doorway.
After a moment Hinter waved an ethereal hand. "So many... legacies."
"Point taken, necromancer. As you can see, however, I am not one to evade responsibilty."
"True, else you would have come within my reach long ago. Or, indeed, chosen a more subtle escape as did your fellow... mages in the Cabal, the night Vorcan walked the shadows."

To me that suggests the T'orrud Cabal faked their own deaths after the Fall and fled to Darujhistan, and once the CG became active and would start hunting for those who brought him down, they let themselves be killed to escape. After all, how else would Baruk know which realm the CG was pulled from, when he summons the human with the Jade eyes?

This post has been edited by Lisheo: 20 October 2008 - 07:19 PM

[Grief]

It is possible. Doesnt sound greatly likely though.
Also, then you have to ask yourself:

Who knew?

Rake?
Crone?
Hood?
K'rul?

Cause you'd think at least one of them would know, and if they knew that means they let them off.

[Lisheo]

I can't see Rake exacting vengeance on them, they seem to be trying to make amends, and Crone seems happy to keep the CG's power. K'rul doesn't intervene unless absolutely necessary, he's proved that time and time again. And I wouldn't think Hood would know. There were probably a billion dead entering Hood's Realm all at once, he's already said he couldn't be bothered counting them, so I doubt he would have looked for the mages.

[Jude]

hahaha this thread just got way better than how it started. That's really interesting. Baruk and Vorcan pullin' down the old cripster. And to back Lish, I doubt that Rake or Crone would do anything to punish the cabal. They know that the Cabal didn't know what they were doing, nor were they bringing him down to increase their own power. They brought him down out of desperation. Rake and K'rul both would have seen this right away. I think it IS very likely, after reading that passage, that the Cabal were the guys responsible.

[Blend]

Holy geez... I never caught that when I was reading... Well eeked! I would give you rep, but you know how it is!

So that's interesting, the T'Orrud Cabal are likely responsible for bringing down the CG... It would bring a whole new dimension to why Darujhistan was such a central city for everything. Craziness!

[Aptorian]

Oh please, it's a totally unpluasable theory.

For one, it was said nobody survived the fall. I doubt that the mages were able to even escape via warren as the fall of the CG probably reverberated through every warren and realm.

People like K'rull and Toc, etc. say that no-one survived.

The Torrud Cabal are linked to the Tyrant. T'orrud was one part of the ancient name for Shield Anvil, T'orrud Seguleh (it was probably spelled a bit different). The Mages being the shield and the Seguleh being the anvil or vice versa.

Not every group of mages have to be the same as the next group of mages. Even if they're immortal.

[Blend]

Aptorian, on Oct 22 2008, 03:31 PM, said:

Oh please, it's a totally unpluasable theory.

For one, it was said nobody survived the fall. I doubt that the mages were able to even escape via warren as the fall of the CG probably reverberated through every warren and realm.

People like K'rull and Toc, etc. say that no-one survived.

The Torrud Cabal are linked to the Tyrant. T'orrud was one part of the ancient name for Shield Anvil, T'orrud Seguleh (it was probably spelled a bit different). The Mages being the shield and the Seguleh being the anvil or vice versa.

Not every group of mages have to be the same as the next group of mages. Even if they're immortal.

Come on though, did you read the quote again? It fits so perfectly. I have to say that I'm with Lish on this one. I stand thoroughly convinced.

[Abyss]

Fair to say the possibility is open. Unlikely, maybe, but hardly unthunkable. Might have changed Rake and Barruk's dealings if that had been revealed. Or maybe not.

We've seen elsewhere there is some confusion about the exact number of mages involved in the Fall. Maybe that was a deliberate blurring of the facts.

They were powerful enuf to reach into a whole other world and yank a god out who is powerful enuf to cause all kinds of problems. It's not unthinkable that somewhere between "Mwahaha, our plan is working, here comes our new pet god!" and "Hey, is he supposed to be falling that fast?" one of the mages decided it was a good time to warren out of there real quick.

Back on topic, given the proximity of the Redeemer to the Andii and the Andii's historic involvement in the Chainings and opposition to the CG, it's not unthinkable the Redeemer and the Andii could be drawn into the final conflict with the CG. Silanah went SOMEwhere, after all. Also, with Rake out of the picture Paran can't call the Andii through the Knight of Darkness card but Mommy D opens the possibility of the Queen card being a link, and Nimander may yet take on a position in the House.

Plus Draconus is back and the Elder Gods are somehow involved in the conflct with the CG as well. RCG SPOILERS RETURN OF THE CRIMSON GUARD MINOR SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER WILL RUIN YOU AND THE SPOILERS HORSE YOU SPOIILERED IN ON SPOILERS

Spoiler

...and there is an unexplored link between Draconus and darkness...

SPOILERS SPOILERS YO MOMMA SPOILERS


- Abyss, could say we're in the dark on the subject....

This post has been edited by Abyss: 22 October 2008 - 03:58 PM