[Lisheo]

How hard is it to imagine that 7/12/however many powerful, probably ascended mages can escape the fall of a God? They had to pull him down. If Heboric can stop the falling of a thousand souls with jade and Otataral hands, then surely the Cabl could have opened up a warren and got out.
Remember, we're not talking about middling squad mages here, or even Quick Ben. We're talking about the equivalent of mage-gods.
Its the responsibility line that gets me... And also, Kruppe "expects to see his own grandmother" in the book about the chainings in GotM. I always thought that meant he had spied out someone he knew already.

Abyss, your point there...

Spoiler

I think he was originally the counterpoint to Osric and Rake usurped his position.

[Aptorian]

Blend, on Oct 22 2008, 05:35 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Oct 22 2008, 03:31 PM, said:

Oh please, it's a totally unpluasable theory.

For one, it was said nobody survived the fall. I doubt that the mages were able to even escape via warren as the fall of the CG probably reverberated through every warren and realm.

People like K'rull and Toc, etc. say that no-one survived.

The Torrud Cabal are linked to the Tyrant. T'orrud was one part of the ancient name for Shield Anvil, T'orrud Seguleh (it was probably spelled a bit different). The Mages being the shield and the Seguleh being the anvil or vice versa.

Not every group of mages have to be the same as the next group of mages. Even if they're immortal.

Come on though, did you read the quote again? It fits so perfectly. I have to say that I'm with Lish on this one. I stand thoroughly convinced.

Okay, I admit that there's a slight possibility that some escaped, but even Hinter says they all died. I think if some had escaped they would had been hunted down, especially by Togg, but there are plenty other things out there that would want justice done for destroying a continent. And they would had found them sooner or later.

I don't buy the idea that they were a bunch of god like mages, in fact I think they were quite the opposite. A group of desperate men, talented and powerhungry, perhaps very arrogant men, who thought they could summon a demon god, perhaps to bind it, maybe just use its strength for a great ritual, maybe they wanted to consume the power, who knows. It's been said somewhere that they sought to lure the god into their trap. This to me suggests not great power but sneaky cunning. They made a small hole into another dimension, put a worm on a hook, a particularly interesting morsel for the curious god, and then they yanked the line. Only, they'd hooked a whale instead of a tuna. The rituals power had begun the gods momentum and when the crossing was begun it was impossible to stop. The god, and his tempel, came tumbling down from the heavens.

I think at the end they all knew what they'd done and they chose to stay. They doomed their people, crippled a foreign god and would most likely do unimaginable damage not only to their land but to the entire world. I think they chose death rather than living with that on their concious.

[Lisheo]

But if they are the Torrud Cabal, then most of them DID choose death... and Togg spent all his time after the Fall, up to Toc, in the Warren of Chaos. He was lost in there.

[Osric]

Very interesting theory Lisheo, virtual rep for you!
I have to say that it's a likable theory, it would also explain a lot about darujistan, about why it's played such a central role like Blend said. That quote by Hinter could mean a lot of things and I've been wondering about it since I read it.. I'm rereading now and Ill be sure to look for a clue towards this. I can't say it's that likely, but if it's true it'd be pretty cool.

[Wordmerchant]

Jude, on Oct 17 2008, 10:40 PM, said:

Was anyone else a little hesitant to go along with the fact that Andii characters kept saying that the pain of the Imass was as nothing compared to the Andii and that the redeemer wouldn't be able to handle them? I mean to me, the Imass had lost alot more than the Andii had.

Any culture will define itself in its own terms, not those of another culture. To the TA, their loss is real and valid, and the losses that belong to other cultures are irrelevant. When I feel lousy, I do not care how many others have it worse.

[Grief]

I have a theory.
We know(from the jaghut, MoI iirc) that Hoods realm is not the only realm of death, only the most recently. Any older culture, will have its own. Jaghut don't go to Hoods realm for example.


Hood does not take the andii. Their god, is mother dark. She is the one who their souls seek.
Except she is ever turned away.

A quote, to illustrate my point.

Toll the hounds, on bantam press, page 694, harback, said:

And now your soul waits, as it must. For this is the fate of the Tiste Andii. Our fate. We will wait.
Until the wait is over.

Nothing awaits their souls. Mother dark does not take them. Her great betrayal. This, I believe, is what the andii lost.
They do not face oblivion, as the T'lan Imass. I imagine they simply wander. Searching for Mother Dark. Who is ever turned away.

Not only that, but the Tiste Andii have many years longer, and the T'lan Ritual seems to stop the Imass feeling much emotion. That is their sacrifice.