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NoK info - SPOILERS!

#81

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:02 AM

Coolest scene : -

Temper attempting to stab an apparently dying Dassem to save them from the Claw...and the resulting fight..
..that gave me goose bumps Posted Image

saddest.....

....their parting... Posted Image I wanted to shout Noooo.....! don't do this.

paradigm shift.....

....my thoughts about the character of Tayschrenn..

confusing moments .....

...the Ice warriors...

revelation....

...the spicy smell of the Hounds... Posted Image
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#82 Guest_Dakkareth_*

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 06:41 AM

Did I mention, that I hate you all? Posted Image
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#83 Guest_Kamek_*

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 05:25 AM

That was a great read. Sure, it was expensive, but there's no way I could have taken missing out on this book (unlike Erikson's novellas, which I think you can skip quite happily if you want).

I think Osserc was only mentioned because his power is "fire" if you like, vs the ice of the stormriders. I don't mean in comparison to the Tayschrenn as he also uses a type of "fire" warren if I recall correctly, but rather to the person who thought he said it because Osserc is perhaps the most powerful mage.

I don't think Agayla is Jhess (not that I'm sure who that is, but the way you guys talk about her makes her seem like an ascendent) as from Tay's perspective we see:

"Tayschrenn damned the sorceress-she and all others aligned with the Enchantress-their eyes saw everywhere"

So it seems she has a patron, this Enchantress. Who is she though? The Queen of Dreams? Seeing everywhere seems to fit in well with the her the time we see her, as she saw things in her pool or whatever it was. Or maybe she's been mentioned elsewhere and I'm just showing my ignorance. I believe Agayla used Thyr at one point, so maybe that'll help identify the Enchantress, though seeing as Tayschreen also used Thyr despite Tellan (or is it Telas?) seemingly being his main warren, plus mnay, many other sshowing the ability to access multiple warrens, maybe makes that point useless.

The stormriders bothered me too for a while, they just didn't seem to fit in with the world we'd seen before. But then when their origins were revealed, I was much happier. Reminds me of the Crippled God.

Did we know Tayschreen used to serve D'rek, the Worm of Autumn, before whoever he serves now? Or maybe he serves no one now but the Empire. Anyway, he mentions D'rek as his "old master", and seems to even have stood before him in some form. Which I guess is no surprise given his power.

I too don't really understand what happened with the Deadhouse's Guardian. Jhenna is gone, that's pretty much certain, and Temper agreed to take her place and seemed to think he had no way of getting out of it...yet once everything was over, he just went back to Mock's Hold! Can you be a Guardian and walk around freely? Besides, not that long later we see Gothos as the Guardian. But we know he'd been in the Azath's service a long, long time, way back when Icarium tried to free him (though he didn't want to be freed) and possibly shattered Kurald Emurlahn. Did he switch houses when the Deadhouse was left without a Guardian? We know he wants the solitude the Azath provides, perhaps the Azath knows that too and let him move to another, unlike Guardians held against their will.

Oh and I'd also like to know if Jhenna was there when Kellanved and the rest occupied the building. Maybe she stood to the side under orders or some sort of compulsion from the Azath, and just hadn't been menitoned in the books yet. Or maybe she somehow stayed out of the way or hidden all that time.

I wonder if Shadowthrone truly doesn't know about whatever Edgewalker was talking about at the end, or if he does and doesn't care that he can't truly have the Throne of Shadow (as seems to be the case), as he and Cotillion have much more ambitious plans if hints are to be believed, and heading Shadowhouse is just a stepping stone. I guess the last person/thing to think they took the throne was a long, long time ago, as surely if it wasn't the House of Shadows would have kept appearing and disappearing in the Deck of Dragons and people wouldn't have expressed such surprise at the new house when Shadowthrone took over. Must have been before they could even remember.

The old man in the boat was interesting. Agayla says the paths to Ascendency are far more varied than Tay imagines when talking of him, so I guess that's a pretty major hint that he was an Ascendant. I'm not sure he'll even come up again though. I almost felt he was just a good, interesting side story to show that very thing (that there are lots of ways to ascend).

Did Dancer have access to a warren? I always thought he didn't for some reason and only gained "magical" abilities once he ascended. Then I thought he demonstrated it in NoK, only for it to turn out to be Kellanved projecting him, a favoured trick apparently. So I guess I'm wondering if there is evidence for or against in other books.

I thought it was very amusing how Dancer got into the Deadhouse as fast as he could, but Kellanved stayed cool and looked around first. I'm not sure if that's a sign of his arrogance, insanity or a mixture of both, but it was good.

I think that's all I have right now, and it's plenty.
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#84 Guest_korik_*

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 07:56 PM

while i remember, i love the fact that aragan turned up again. i like it that ICE is carrying on that tradition Posted Image
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#85 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 08:57 AM

From waht we've seen of Tays so far he has always acted alone no bodygaurds, no one accompanying him, so its perhaps unsuprising that we haven't met kiska or his other bodygaurd.

Personally i think it goes back to the SE/ICE pact where they use the same world but not the same characters, Kiska may come into play in one of SE's later books, but i suspect that she is mroe likely to appear in one of ICE's.

As for kiska=blend, i doubt it.

And regarding the fact that dassem and skinner crossed swords... do you take that as meaning an honourable draw o,r skinner or dassem win but let the other leave?
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#86 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 05:54 AM

Yeah, i just noticed that inconsistency, i always got telas and thyr mixed up...

So according to NoK tatersail and tays use teh same warren... do we get confirmation in MOI about what warren tays uses?

quote:
Although, my personal theory is that because telas and thyr are so alike, that two positives, as it were, repel each other.


That would suggest people who wielded the same warren would repel each other more... btu all the squad mages in HoC use meanas so that doesn't quite work.

I think it's most likely that this is merely a GotMism as Kamek said...
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#87 User is offline   Fist Gamet 

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 06:04 AM

Yes, agree with Abyss, the Riders were "alien" and were coming to Malaz Isle under the influence of Shadow Moon to either 1. Escape the Straits (as was suggested, iirc) or 2. Get to the Deadhouse.
Agayla tells us that this is only possible for the Riders because Laseen's purge against the local magery left them too weak to repel the Riders. The fisherman was one of the survivors of the purge (he was a wavesinger, or something like that), like Agayla.

Overall, quite enjoyable but a little dissappointed. I felt that the story got a bit confused at moments and I struggled now and then to follow ICE's writing (just a question of clarity, to my mind) but my main gripe was that the story was nowhere near exciting or violent enough. I mean, we never really saw any of these terrible "nightmares" and there was not nearly enough suspense or horror, imho. Following on from the SE tradition of hints and bluffs was welcome (and filling in a few blanks created by SE) and he did create a few excellent characters , especially Temper (that old sod had no idea just how damned good a fighter he was).

Lastlt, I might have missed something obvious throughout SE's books but I NEVER IMAGINED Kel...I mean, he ...looked like that!!!!
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#88 User is offline   Kalahinen 

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 06:38 AM

So Dassem didn't die at Y'Ghatan?
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#89 User is offline   Therion 

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 06:00 PM

I have a new (loony?) theory - could Edgewalker be Scabandari, resurrected in some form? Sure, he is walking Kurald Emuhrlan which would probably not be a fitting prison for someone associated with Shadow. OTOH, it would make a nice punishment if he were able only to guard, yet never take control of the warren (again?).

Is my mind playing tricks on me, or do I seem to recall that in one of Edgewalker's POVs it is mentioned that he tried to control/was in control of the warren once?

If he were Scabandari, him attempting to take control of Emuhrlan would imply that there was some higher power than himself, which would have to be Mother Dark. Maybe Kurald Emuhrlan was literally ripped from Kurald Galain, i.e. Mother Darks influence? And while Scabandari and the Edur had influence, the "creation" of the warren and its Throne did not necessarily imply that Scabandari would occupy it -- possibly due to the laws of nature/sorcery, or some action by Mother Dark or the Andii?
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#90 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 08:14 PM

Edgy did say he tried to control it once.

I would have thought Meanas didn't even exist as such when Scabby was shattered by the Elder Gods, but hey, a lot can happen in a few hundred thousand years. It could have existed as a fragment of KE even then.

I like the poetry of expansionist Scabby being forced to eternally walk the borders of a realm he could never control. The personality/attitude seems all wrong for it to be him, but again, a few thousand years can be excellent therapy for anti-social tendencies.

One also wonders where this tendency of Meanas to enslave those who tried to control it came from, and how the Hounds ended up in the same boat, but obeying Shadowthrone, unlike Edgy who told him to bug right off.

- Abyss, thinks Edgewalker needs a serious pedicure.
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#91 User is offline   cowl 

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 08:32 PM

Abyss said:

One also wonders where this tendency of Meanas to enslave those who tried to control it came from, and how the Hounds ended up in the same boat, but obeying Shadowthrone, unlike Edgy who told him to bug right off.


I didn't think that Edgewalker and Shadowthrone had met. if they had the it would have been Kellanved nyway wouldn't it as he hadn't taken over then. maybe edgewalker has to obey shadowthrone now he's in charge of the realm.
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#92 User is offline   Set'alahd Crool 

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 02:48 PM

Edgewalker. I seem to recall something about him. Some rumour.....
It's gone again.

@Cowl: They meet alright. I got the impression that Edgewalker is a slave TO shadow rather than being a slave IN shadow. He's not shadowkeep's fulltime buttler, subject to its ruler's whims. He walks the borders of Emurlahn. And if Jhedel can be believed he's a lot more than your average god. Or was, at least.

Scabby? Maybe. Maybe not. That's one of which we probably will learn the truth. Edgewalker's identity, if he's not Scabby, might well remain a mystery.
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#93 User is offline   Rel 

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 08:52 AM

Hetan said:

revelation....

...the spicy smell of the Hounds...
That bit struck me as odd, actually. If it means what I think it means, then I'm surprised we haven't had a hint of it before.
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#94 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 03:10 PM

It's been implied, more than once, mostly in HoC, that the Hounds of Shadow were tied to Dessimbelackis, who was D'ivers, and who did have seven forms.

The theory that the Hounds are or once were some form of shapeshifter isn't TOO crazed.

- Abyss, some form of seatshifter.
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#95 User is offline   Iron Bars 

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 05:20 PM

Wasn't it the Hounds of Darkness that had a link to Dessimbelackis? Anyway how does it tie in with NoK?
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#96 User is offline   cowl 

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 05:27 PM

Iron Bars said:

Wasn't it the Hounds of Darkness that had a link to Dessimbelackis? Anyway how does it tie in with NoK?


i think their tying in the spicy smell of the Hounds in NoK with whats been said about soultaken in other books that when they change theres a a spicy smell. hinting that the hounds are soultaken
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#97 User is offline   Iron Bars 

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Posted 08 August 2005 - 05:47 PM

Which part is this, I seem to have missed it. Probably the Rood vs Temper fight.

Time for a reread (already).
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#98

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Posted 09 August 2005 - 11:26 AM

It would be really cool if the Hounds of Shadow are the soletaken forms of the Hounds of Darkness....:D

Crazy theories anyone.
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#99 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 10 August 2005 - 09:45 PM

Hmmm...

Dassem Ultor - First Sword, tasked with finding the enemy's champions and drawing them out in order to kill them and thus damage enemy moral and prompt Malazan victory.


Rhulad Sengar - Emporer, forced by the CG into finding enemy champions who might kill him so he can get stronger, come back and kill them and thus damage enem,y morale and prompt Edur victory.


Random coincidence? Deliberate parallel? Abyss is procrastinating real work too much? Discuss.

- Abyss, probably the last option.
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#100 User is offline   Hume 

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 09:51 AM

Well I just finished it then.

Great Book overall, found it didnt really pick up till around half-way.
However House of chains I found to be a little condusing, GotM, DG, MoI and MT I didnt find confusing at all.
Night of Knives though, this for me was by far the most confusing one of all.

Loved Temper from the start, epecially his flashbacks to Y'Ghtatan and Dassems "death"


So just to add my two cents on some things floating around so far.

The whole Temper "Guardian" and Jhenna "Guardian" thing.
The way I saw it was that Dancer and Kellanved went through the back while their cultist friends out the front distracted the fiends. One of these fiends of course being a Jaghut. Those two blokes attacked Jhenna so she couldnt stop Dancer and Kellanved getting in really. Because of the "Shadow Night" it seems that Jhenna had an oppurtunity to escape the azath grounds when it got attacked. When the two blokes died (forgot their names) Temper had to stand in to stop her getting out.
Temper defeated her with the help of the Azath, Corrin and The Hunchback and the Azath grounds took her again into the ground.

So, the way I see it. Temper is a guard at Mocks hold, he is NOT a guardian of the deahouse or related to or needed by it in ANY manner at all, once he defeated Jhenna his role was finished. Jhenna was a PRISONER of the deadhosue and wanted to leave, she however was also an unwitting and unwanting defacto guardian. Gothos on the other hand was a prisoner but he accepted that fact while Jhenna didnt and Gothos in effect was more of a guardian than Jhenna ever was. The way I saw it he guarded the house when it was in REAL trouble (like the odanhouse style trouble in DG).
So, Gothos was always there as an accepted Guardian while Jhenna didnt like being there.

The stormriders, woah that was a bit off-center having some new and all powerful force being introduced again for me. Didnt mind it too much though, loved that bit at the end with what the stormrider says.

Dassem, Top Bloke as well, agree with Hetan there, he is definately one of the coolest of the old guard probly second after whiskeyjack at this stage. Hope to see him again soon, I think we will. The book also shows how Good Dassem really is as well as Skinner, also gotta think that Whiskeyjack could fight Dassem for a while until Dassem would win, makes you think how good Whiskey must have been as well. (Whiskey = Iron Bars Level of skill?)
One thing this didnt clarify, which I wanted it too.
When exactly did Dassem Ascend ?
Was it a Coltaine sort of thing where as over time due his awesome sword powers and tactical prowess he ascended sort off. As we see no magical ability or hear from it at all. We only get a strong Hint of power from Apsalar that Dassem has in HoC, he also kicked some edur arse as well.
Did he ascend when he 'died' ?
Did hood have a hand in it ? clearly having a Patron was a popular thing in the early days of the empire and Dassem chose hood until hood took his daughter obviously. There is also the quite (forgot who said it) "Dassem's power had grown to Rival Hoods own".
Hmm Food for thought ? when was ascension for him or was it a event over time for him ?

Kiska took a little bit to grow on me, like her though a lot towards the end.

Best character probly Temper, Though I doubt we'll see him again.


I think it'll be either Kiska or Ferulle that we see in Bonehunters.

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