[Jump Around]

Silencer, on Oct 22 2008, 10:46 AM, said:

I said JA - I have the thread OPEN. Which makes it like I'm reading.

So what, you like to keep my new avatar in the corner of your vision when you study?


... or worse

[dktorode]

Morgoth, on Oct 22 2008, 12:39 AM, said:

All right. I'm back from work. Dinner has been eaten. Whisky has been served (a 10 y.o. Yochi - a delicious Japanese single malt) and all is well.

So then, to posting.

Now, there's a problem here and I hope you forgive me for this. I am too used to being able to access all people's posts in thread it never occured to me to do as I do in westeros game and copy posts that catch my eye into word. As a result, I have no direct links to posts and no direct quotes in this case for the simple reason that it's 23 and something pm and I'm not about to search through the 51 pages of thread just to find the few posts I want. Soo, you'll have to make do with my impressions and second hand descriptions, and hopefully your recolections will be enough to make you judge whether you find that I am onto something, or way out in happypappy land.

Ever since DiBs (ironically enough) made me consider exactly why I thought Tapper to be innocent, my suspicion of Tapper has grown quite substansially. As I mentioned earlier, he seemed to have been caught up in DiBs the whirlwind for sticking out for me, which made me very sympathetic. He's the only player of yet I've named PI in one of my spoiler messages. An opinion I no longer hold as I'm sure you understand.

I thougt Tapper was innocent because he was snuggled quite comfortably in the shadow of the day one and parts of the day two case on me. If I was his symp, that would've been pretty much exactly where I would've wanted him to be. In a position that, if I died, would be strenghtened substansially. It seemed, even to me, that whatever case there was against Tapper rested solely on my alignment. I'm innocent so I assumed he was innocent too.

It's a big risk to take though. How could Tapper have known I was innocent? Only a couple of players so far have voiced strong convictions of just that. So why did he risk it? Perhaps he did indeed feel that the case on me was too weak, and so symped me unwittingly. I know I've done that on occasions. I even got poor Piper lynched for it at one time, but that's another story.

So, let's give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. But what about Gem then? And the other times he defended without taking a real stand? Did he unwittingly symp them too? It's quite possible. Again, I've never been a supporter of the theory that defence=symp so I didn't think much of it at the time. Yet, I did feel more suspicious of Tapper simply because I was earlier convinced for no good reason of his innocence.

what's interesting is what happened when people started calling Tapper out on his play. Several people bring up the possibility of Tapper doing this on purpose to seem innocent. There's no real pressure yet, no risk of Tapper being lynched. There are far too many candidates with lynch mobs waiting with torches in their hands and blood burning in their eyes. All of this is obvious yet Tapper does not calmly rebute this, or even ignore it. No, he panics. He panics like Bent discovering he's not in a NRA rally but at a conference for gay liberals and communists. You all know of which post I speak. The long post that in essence just summarizes the game before it finaly makes a few comments about the case. I imediatly noticed it as to my mind it oozed panic. And it doesn't stop there. For several pages Tapper hammers at the alegations against him. Alegations that were not alltogether organiced or threatening. He's overreacting badly and one has to question why that is.

Tapper, on Oct 21 2008, 09:27 PM, said:

I'd be really happy to vote for Gavin.
He's been influential through his actions but has offered very little of his own insight into the game. If we let him, he will always be a low poster this game. if we then all reason like JA (let's lynch someone with more content) then low posting and not offering insight into actions and motives is a) getting rewarded, your own go-out-of-jail-card for as long as you keep it up.

However, seeing that Silencer has received votes, has done drive-by-voting without explaining himself (which is a good ground for asking the why and how), and seems to be online every now and then without posting (it's an art, I can't do it), I'm perfectly happy with voting for him to pressure him into talking. Not sure I want to keep my vote on him until lynch, though.


Vote Silencer.

That all being said, I'm looking forward to see Morgoth post now that his main tormentor is dead.

This is a post that stands out in regards to Tapper because here he takes a stand. We've reached the point now where people have to make their opinions show or risk being lynched for being too carefull. But up until this point Tapper have been a very helpfull, polite and easy going player that have just not offended or truly argued against anyone in particular.

Now, all of these factors, individually, do not constitue a killer. Combined however, they paint a much darker picture.

Tapper snuggled up to a number of players early and tied his fate to my CF result in the begining even though he could by no means know of my allegiance.

His style of play has been one that makes it easy to like him, and thus trust him.

He's stayed away from conflcit

He paniced completly upon receiving the slightest of pressure.


This combined makes Tapper my favourite for killer. I think he's teamed up with Gavin, though that is mostly based on gut I do admitt. I don't know who their symps are, and really do not wish to speculate about that as of yet.

So, I vote Tapper

Thank you ...that pretty much sums up what ive ben talking/thinking about Tapper all of yesterday...

[dktorode]

Morgoth, on Oct 22 2008, 01:07 AM, said:

I needed about 20 games to get half decent at this game, so perhaps I'm not the best of examples.

This is what?...game 19 for you?

This post has been edited by dktorode: 22 October 2008 - 08:00 AM

[Morgoth]

Tapper, on Oct 22 2008, 09:32 AM, said:

Hmm. What a dull night vote-wise. I had expected to see 3 or more against me. More on that later.

To counter Morgoth's quoteless case, I'll provide quoteless case against him, myself, based on how a killer-Morgoth (and his partner, who I think is Gavin) would think. Usually, this is an end-game analysis, and not done with 14 people still alive, so Morgy's the sole one I made this for.

It's day 1, and there's a train of L-5 against you. You're a killer, and you've got DiBs against you, with a lot of people around who know him by reputation only and are willing to agree with him, time is running out. You need a diversion or you're going down 'cause this is day 1 and every attack is feeble, every defense also, so the one who creates momentum is the one who gains the lynch. Luckily, Yellow makes a meta-based case that can be used as a diversion to start a second train.

Gavin reacts on that by targeting alt146 instead of Yellow. Alt146 was influenced by the meta-case, probably scaring off others who intended to do the same, sensible people agree that voting for this kind of meta sucks, and maybe a few agreed because they're ashamed of themselves.
Surprisingly starts a train that goes to lynch.

It is now night, and Morgoth and his partner have a problem. Morgoth lives, but there's this huge train that came to his rescue. They have to make sure that the innocence of one of the trainstarters is revealed to take the heat of, so they NK the guy who was the first known innocent on that train: J_slr, the second poster. This is done either because Gavin is Morgoth's partner or because they suspect him to be (one of their) symp to them.

It is day 2, and DiBs renews his assault on Morgoth, adding tiny tidbits to his case to flesh it out.
The killers have a problem; one of them is handicapped, is attacked on his every post and this has got to stop soon.
We all know that one of the traditional formations (but certainly not the only one) for killers to employ is a silent one and a vocal one.
Morgoth's pretty persuasive, so I guess he's to be the vocal one in the partnership. Except that he can't, for there's an even more vocal DiBs picking him up and throwing him around, asking his opinions without being swayed by them.

Morgoth ends at 4 votes and DiBs shows no signs of quiting, as he is willing to change to a compromise-candidate if that gets a lynch.
Then, there's a leftover train from the weekend break on Lace.
There is a train on Gem for being unconstructive based on another case by Gavin, on which Morgoth ends up. JA later says he thinks that this train was scum-heavy and that they didn't dare to go all in. If Gavin is a symp, it makes sense as a diversion, if he and Morgoth are partners, less so for them both to be on that train. All in all, there is no lynch.

It is night 2.
DiBs has to go. Luckily, he has been attacking other people as well, has an extensive suspect list that changes, so his kill, as Venge pointed out, is completely WIFOM and cannot be constructed as a kill just to free Morgoth. Actually, during the night, Morgoth remarks that he doesn't expect that DiBs can drive a train against him for three days in a row. Conveniently downplaying the effects of the impending death of DiBs? Maybe, maybe not. DiBs dies.
Gem dies. Morgoth has his hands free now to be the vocal player.

It is day 3.
Time for Morgoth to flex his muscles and start establishing a measure of control over the game. The most ideal situation would be if the lynch train would drive itself on inno-votes to its destination after only a nudge, not requiring interference from the second killer or, preferably, the symps. Because, what is going to happen is this: your target is going to turn up inno, so you can expect the train being picked apart and fingers pointing at you.

What you want is a player that's appearing on several suspicionmeters already, who has few friends willing to aid in defense, and who didn't leave a very strong impression so far. (That's me; and I'll make no secret of the fact that I'm well disgusted with the quality of my play so far).
Encourage the existing suspicion, and people will jump on, and if the target is weak, his defense will be feeble, which will encourage the enthusiasm for the lynch, and will make everyone feel less of a fool if the deceased comes up inno, and less willing to go after the OP, for you too thought he was scum, didn't you? And his defense sucked... besides, the OP wasn't exactly saying something new; hints were all over the topic already.

It was a reasonably good play towards establishing a flock of Morgoth-led sheep and get a killer-driven lynch that would not arouse too much suspicion. I think the sole mistake Morgoth made, was attacking Yellow while I was writing my reply to Morgoth's case, probably because he thought I was going to bed without replying. It netted him three votes and made him lose focus.

A second side-effect that he couldn't be aware of, was that I had decided during my conversation with Dkt to play sitting duck. Bait.
I've sucked pretty badly so far in this game, and I decided to use that as my redeeming feature in a gambit over my own corpse.
A freed Morgoth would seek a way to push his stamp on play and the best way to do so, was push a lynch on an easy target, doubly so if he was a killer, counting on the lack of a rallying point against him that is DiBs. I decided I was the best there was available, and had no problems playing the part. More, I knew I'd come up inno and I thought that it would primarily be inno's who would jump on my train, see the reasoning above; I could then make a version of this post and direct everyone back to the day 1 trains, which for me, are still an attack on a killer and a succeeding diversion by either his symp, or a partner.

Now, a great lot of this is WIFOM and speculation. I don't think that in and by itself it is enough to see him lynched, but Morgoth is the lynchpin around which play revolves. I want to see him gone. If he's inno, I'm accepting I could be next. But I don't think he is, to be honest. The above is all reasonable, collected play, doing what is necessary. None of it stands out as extremely odd.

Remove vote.
Vote Morgoth

There's limits to how much I can indeed defend myself, seeing that all this is if I am a killer arguments. If I was a killer I could wear my underwear on my head and dance naked through the street singing I am a ninny.

There's a couple of pointers I'd like to mention.

1) Why would I want to kill DiBs? If I was a killer, DiBs being alive still would've been good for me. Pushing my case for the third time would be difficult. Experience says few people would flock to him just because it would be the same over again. With him dead, a case on me would be argued by new people, which would make it seem fresher and thus more likely to succeed. Also, DiBs and I captilazied the discussion at times, and for periods the whole game revolved around us. If I was a killer with a silent partner, this would've been perfect and not something I would want to stop.

2) If I were to make case to pull along all the sheep to get a lynch and thus control, I would've picked someone I'd know to be less capable of defending themselves, right? We all know you are able to respond quite well to cases, so it doesn't really make sense then that i'd pick you over Baudin, Silencer, Lisheo, Lace, Mocker, and the Dude.

3) Yes, a lot has been revovling around me, but that seems to be mainly DiBs and Lace's fault for pushing the same case on me since day one. As the days have been progressing they've theorized about new connections to me as they've adapted what little case they have, thus implicating more than half the players of the game in the great conspiracy that is my masterplan. In the end, killing me will indeed show you whether some cases on me are correct (which they aren't) but it will not help as much as some people claim purely because there's so many people tied to me now.

4) just to repeat. If I wanted an easy target to help me gain control of the game. I would not have chosen you. IT doesn't make sense. Your argument is persuasive in that it offers something for people to latch onto. Yes I would also do that as a killer. Thankfully it is massively WIFOM and I expect people to see that

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. There are 3 hours minutes remaining.

14 people ah ah ah ah - staying alive: Baudin, Dktorode ,Gavin, Jump Around, Lacedaemonian, Lisheo, Mocker, Morgoth, Obdigore, Silencer, Tapper, The Dude, Vengence, Yellow

8 votes for lynch 7 votes for night

3 votes for Silencer (Jump Around, Lisheo, Morgoth)
1 vote for Lisheo (Obdigore)
5 votes Morgoth (Lacedaemonian, Yellow, The Dude, Tapper, Silencer)

Not voted : Baudin, DKTorode, Gavin, Mocker, Vengeance

This is alt, your morning mod

[Morgoth]

dktorode, on Oct 22 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

Morgoth, on Oct 22 2008, 01:07 AM, said:

I needed about 20 games to get half decent at this game, so perhaps I'm not the best of examples.

This is what?...game 19 for you?

why are you so mean to me?

[Silencer]

And since when am I an easy target?

Just because I'm not here half the time, I still don't get lynched very often.

Oh, and JA, switch to Morgo already, and we have a L-1

[Morgoth]

didn't the dude change his vote?

[Jump Around]

But didn't the Dude switch from Morgy to Silencer?

Although now I see that his vote would be better on Morgoth, just to give us a chance for a lynch.

I don't want to speak for the others, but if Dude, dktorode, Gavin and I move on to Morgoth we can get a lynch. I don't think we can get Silencer, sadly

[Silencer]

No. Now be quiet!

Cross with JA - that was @Morgo

[Morgoth]

also, @Tapper's case (i'm not going to quote it again) - I argued with Yellow because Yellow was being an ass. I found that perfectly legitimate

[Tapper]

He, I made the WIFOM and killer-POV points myself, if I wanted to deceive people, I wouldn't do it like this. As said, this is exclusively tying the events of the past days to you and seeing where they'd end up if you're killer. I never pretended to do anything else with it.

Actually, you were voted on by Lace, who stated a case. JA hasn't made a case, but suspects you. They might have aided DiBs, but today, they didn't rally votes against you, so I call the 'absence of DiBs is bad for me' point moot. It was completely quiet around you today up until you targeted Yellow.

2) it's not about responses, it's about votes. Several people had their suspicions on me, all you needed to do was fan the flames and hope my response would suck as bad as the remainder of my play.

3) the only way to find out, is through a lynch, isn't it? I'll agree with DiBs trying to connect everyone and their mother to you, but that is also exactly why he was an apetizing target for you on night 2.

4) repition, so I'll leave it by stating that you actually have 3 arguments against this, all centering on: "what if I'm not a killer"

What I did is speculation and looking back. It holds 0 evidence, but what it does do is offer a motive for what happened so far. We haven't had a single motive so far, and I can't tie everything that happened to any other player this way like I could to you, frankly.

[dktorode]

Lisheo, on Oct 22 2008, 01:28 AM, said:

DK and Obdi. Both seemed very eager to pick on the low(content) posters. Not that Im not guilty of that myself. But both seperately going for two different targets with almost synchronised times?
Not only that, neither has really put the other into one of their arguments, although there is reason for that.
Not just that, there was the desired reveal of the vig. Yes, DK was opposed to it while Obdi was not, but that sounds like a bad cop-good cop role, almost. As I said when I first read the idea, that's only gonna help the killers, revealing who was vig. Yes, I know, team evil already more or less know who is who, but it would be handy to know who was vig if they are, say, intending to target roled members. Also, as they don't seem to really have all that much conversation between them, they both seem to me to be fairly familiar with each others ideas, which just seems like the kind of thing a killer pairing would bring about.

Hahahah wow Lish you only messed that one up, didnt you.

Firstly yes we both went for low content posters, so what of it? I wanted you guys to start talking less shit and more about what YOU think...
i DID say to Obdi that we should put mocker in the same boat as yourself because i went through his posts and there is just bugger all there. So you saying "neither has really put the other into one of their arguments" is just bollocks.

Secondly, i DID want the vig to come forward, you say i didnt?
revealing who the vig was will help the killers how exactly?...please explain?...you do know its a ONE SHOT vig right?
He is now a roleless inno!! He can clear up who viged who and we will have a VPI to bounce ideas off of. Also the healer can heal him and we could even get a no night kill!!...didnt think of that did you?

And we hardly talk direclty becasue we are at different time zones...period.
Nice try though...next time try and get the fact right though.

Im wondering if this is just an attempt at finding something scummy out of nothing, or if you are feeling the pressure of obdi's vote and are desperately searching for something to say that will satiate our need for you to add more content to your posts?

[Jump Around]

Hopefully dktorode will end his epic catch-up quest before time out

[Morgoth]

Tapper, on Oct 22 2008, 10:14 AM, said:

He, I made the WIFOM and killer-POV points myself, if I wanted to deceive people, I wouldn't do it like this. As said, this is exclusively tying the events of the past days to you and seeing where they'd end up if you're killer. I never pretended to do anything else with it.

Actually, you were voted on by Lace, who stated a case. JA hasn't made a case, but suspects you. They might have aided DiBs, but today, they didn't rally votes against you, so I call the 'absence of DiBs is bad for me' point moot. It was completely quiet around you today up until you targeted Yellow.

2) it's not about responses, it's about votes. Several people had their suspicions on me, all you needed to do was fan the flames and hope my response would suck as bad as the remainder of my play.

3) the only way to find out, is through a lynch, isn't it? I'll agree with DiBs trying to connect everyone and their mother to you, but that is also exactly why he was an apetizing target for you on night 2.

4) repition, so I'll leave it by stating that you actually have 3 arguments against this, all centering on: "what if I'm not a killer"

What I did is speculation and looking back. It holds 0 evidence, but what it does do is offer a motive for what happened so far. We haven't had a single motive so far, and I can't tie everything that happened to any other player this way like I could to you, frankly.

Targeting Yellow? When did I target Yellow? I responded to his absurd allegations regarding my explenation of whyI thought the day 1 lynch on me didnt go through. If that's targeting you've got a very very broad definition of the word. As for the argument regarding DiBs being moot, that's completly false and you should see that as well as I. Had DiBs been here, the discussion around me would've been exactly the same as day 2 and exactly the same as day 1. It wouldn't have drawn many votes, would such an argument. Not to mention we'd fill the whole day up with yelling. I think you're wilfully ignoring this just to make any counter case on me.

Thankfully, when I'm lynched and found inno, people might start paying a little more attention to what you're actually saying

[Tapper]

Jump Around, on Oct 22 2008, 10:17 AM, said:

Hopefully dktorode will end his epic catch-up quest before time out

Yeah. Hopefully, we end the day with the cognac drinking, cuban cigar smoking Norwegian snob's head on a pole (I just made the case against him because I'm jealous, of course )

[Morgoth]

oh yeah, I'm off for a little while, but here:

It is Day 3. There are slightly less than 3 hours remaining.

14 people ah ah ah ah - staying alive: Baudin, Dktorode ,Gavin, Jump Around, Lacedaemonian, Lisheo, Mocker, Morgoth, Obdigore, Silencer, Tapper, The Dude, Vengence, Yellow

8 votes for lynch 7 votes for night

4 votes for Silencer (Jump Around, Lisheo, Morgoth, the Dude)
1 vote for Lisheo (Obdigore)
4 votes Morgoth (Lacedaemonian, Yellow, Tapper, Silencer)

Not voted : Baudin, DKTorode, Gavin, Mocker, Vengeance

This is alt, your morning mod

[Tapper]

Target was probably a wrong word. Something in your post made him think he was accused by you of getting alt lynched.
Misunderstanding, maybe... it wouldn't suit your purposes to any extent, but somehow, it happened.

Oh, and we disagree about the DiBs thing, I guess. The case was still under development. Granted, Dibs would have needed fresh additions to keep it valid, or implicate new people, but I doubt he'd stop. Honestly.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. There are 2 hours 30 minutes remaining.

14 people ah ah ah ah - staying alive: Baudin, Dktorode ,Gavin, Jump Around, Lacedaemonian, Lisheo, Mocker, Morgoth, Obdigore, Silencer, Tapper, The Dude, Vengence, Yellow

8 votes for lynch 7 votes for night

4 votes for Silencer (Jump Around, Lisheo, Morgoth, The Dude)
1 vote for Lisheo (Obdigore)
4 votes Morgoth (Lacedaemonian, Yellow, Tapper, Silencer)

Not voted : Baudin, DKtorode, Gavin, Mocker, Vengeance

Sorry, missed the dude's vote. This is the correct (I hope :0)

[Morgoth]

Tapper, on Oct 22 2008, 10:22 AM, said:

Target was probably a wrong word. Something in your post made him think he was accused by you of getting alt lynched.
Misunderstanding, maybe... it wouldn't suit your purposes to any extent, but somehow, it happened.

Oh, and we disagree about the DiBs thing, I guess. The case was still under development. Granted, Dibs would have needed fresh additions to keep it valid, or implicate new people, but I doubt he'd stop. Honestly.

I never said he'd stop. If I was a killer I would not have wanted him to. I've been saying this again and again.

Also. Read the post that Yellow reacted so badly to. Do you see any reasons to freak out like that? I certainly do not