Abyss, on 09 January 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:
Because there are males born then who did not go around grabbing young girls in elevators and using their fame as a shield.
Absolutely there were. But I think we could agree that they were very likely in the minority. Men really just assumed they could do whatever. And I mean, they obviously got away with it back then.
Abyss, on 09 January 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:
Because it's important to realize that for all their talent and contribution to literature, these men also contributed to an atmosphere of misogyny and entitlement that pervades lit, comics, tv, film, gaming, etc to this day, and giving them a pass because of their contributions and when they were born isn't making things better.
I can lay this at a LOT of those people, perhaps even all from that era though. Realizing it? Sure. But I guess I just assumed they all were like this to some degree because society of that time basically called it "okay" in a broad way. Even his female counterparts of the era (like Julliet Marillier spoke about Asimov; note: she was almost 30 years his junior) basically (at the time) passed it off, avoided him if they could, but didn't do anything more than try to hand it back to him (Marillier apparently would grab his crotch when he patted her ass as a retribution...he found that playful and reportedly she deemed it the same). It was, sadly, accepted behaviour...meanwhile this guy sounds like he was the Weinstein of his day.
Abyss, on 09 January 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:
Because in 2006 Harlan Ellison grabbed Connie Willis' breast at a Hugo Awards presentation and he thought that that was ok. In 2006.
Indeed, and he's literally from that era too (a decade or so later, but still)...he thought it was okay because he grew up with it BEING okay on a social level (I should note, it was NOT okay...but back then it was glossed over...). No doubt he assumed that Connie, a contemporary age-wise, would treat him as women might have treated him about it in the previous decades...not to mention that 2006 was not exactly woke.
The point being that every one of the examples so far have been men of my grandparents era (Baby Boomer parents), and as such they ALL ascribe to the notions of that era as totally okay...even as society and social norms marched on.
Abyss, on 09 January 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:
Thus, the fact that any of this is news to me... or anyone... is enough reason to not leave it at 'Well duh'.
Yeah, I get that. But I mean, is there any viable reasons at this point to
not assume that this culture of misogyny wasn't permeating all levels of society during the first 3/4 of the 20th? I think it was, because even Weinstein got to ply his trade well into the 2000's before people rose up and said, "no, this is not cool and you will be held accountable."
I'm not trying to argue the point with you, I agree it's
all bad and we do need to pay attention to it to make sure that the next generations continue to grow away from such terrible mentalities...I think I just meant that I expect most famous literary people from the 20th are going to have stains on them/skleletons in the closet...small or large.
Zimmer Bradley was well...you know this probably.
Hunter S Thompson was insane, violent, and terrible.
George Orwell was a member of a group propaganda labelling black, gay, and other minorities to get them blacklisted and thus not a threat to his work.
Gertrude Stein was a pocket fascist who admired Hitler.
Hemingway was....well he was...
JD Salinger was reportedly a super creep who was into Grooming...
Jack London was a disastrous racist.
Roald Dahl = Anti-semetic
William Golding was a sexist and abusive creep who tried to rape young girls.
Norman Mailer was a violent sociopath who almost killed his wife in a rage, and helped a convicted murderer get out of prison (because he thought him a good writer), and that convict murdered again after his release.
David Foster Wallace - Stalker and abusivne creep.
Enid Blyton - racist, sexist, and homophobe.
Anne Perry - murder.
Dr. Seuss: An affair while married that lead directly to the suicide of his then wife.
And if you push even a little further back you get even worse stuff by people arguably even MORE famous...
Dickens was a bigamist, delinquent father, and repeatedly other nasty skeletons.
Mary Shelley - sex on top of her mothers grave...yep...yep.
Victor Hugo liked the
red light district to an addictive level.
Basically everyone is awful...LOL. Ugh.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
"Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone." ~Ursula Vernon
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