[Soulessdreamer]

Immortality

I want to know how it all ends

People are assuming alot with their concepts of immortality, that they won't age, that they wont forget (how many years worth of memory can the human brain store) that the wont recieve injuries that death would be a release from, that they wouldn't suffer from apathy and ennui, that they would remain human or that humanity wouldn't surpass them while they remained the same.

But in the end heaven is a matter of faith which I do not have.

Immortality

TTFN

[Skywalker]

I wish there was a "none of the above"/ "oblivion" option.

When I die (and I do expect to) I'd like that to be it, thanks.

[Yellow]

 Skywalker, on Feb 26 2009, 12:19 PM, said:

When I die (and I do expect to)

Quitter!

[frookenhauer]

 Yellow, on Feb 6 2009, 08:18 PM, said:

My biggest regret when I die is that I'll never know the future, which pisses me off because the future is more interesting than the present.

Funny you should say that, by my reckoning the world seems to be heading towards that weird dystopian world we see in films like bladerunner...only worse.

[Aptorian]

Ok cynical input here.

A big no thanks to immortality

I don't fear death, because I think death is just like turning out a lightbulb. A lot of biological, painfull physical and mental degradation and then deaths sweet release. I don't think there's anything else after death, in fact I hope there is nothing else, because the idea of a christian heaven for example, really scares the shit out of me.

I don't want immortality because I expect earth to turn into a real shithole within the next couple of hundred years. It doesn't matter if we all embraced world peace and vegetarianism tomorrow, I think we're just too many people, with too harmfull a way of living, that earth is gonna become a horrible, painfull place for a good long while... sooner or later, thank god I'll be gone or on my way out before it gets really bad.

On the other hand I would happily settle for an interesting compromise. Digital upload. Hopefully in another 40-50 years time techology and science has evolved to the point that you could take a photocopy of a persons mind. Uploading everything that makes up your personality, basically meaning you can live on in cyberspace. In there you won't have to fear ane lack of comfort and, expecting the human mind can adapt, you can look forward to an eternity of existance how ever you like. Continue to interact with the outside world, transfer yourself to outside "vehicles", lose yourself in what ever "matrix like" universe you can imagine or... if ever you want to quit. Erase yourself.

[frookenhauer]

So you decide on...immortality?

Or should I say Digimmortality, or whatever. Well you're almost certainly some of the way there as am I cos of the amount of time we spend on the boards and elsewhere, but most of my online time is here.

[Aptorian]

Strictly speaking inside a computer you would no longer be alive, in the traditional understanding of the word anyway. The rest of the world could go to hell but as long as the computers and energy supplies last you're good.

[frookenhauer]

I always considered consciousness and whatever the hell that really is to be living and life, the body and brain is just a vessel for the intellect.

[Aptorian]

That's very zen.

[frookenhauer]

But hardly original...I'm sure I've read it somewhere and made it mine own.

BTW I'd join you boyo, anything to prolong the journey if that is what it would take, but to be fair, if we had the tech to do total consciousness download into a quantum cyberspace thingy, I'd expect to have genetic modifiers to be readily available by then.

I were watching this odd TV show with this extremely oddball but very clever Professor on it. He was talking about prolonging human life by preventing the cell/molecular damage that happens while we age. Boiled down the causes of our 'deaths' barring accident/ suicide/murder etc number about 13/14 different failures and scientists around the world are working on these failures to see of they can prevent them and stop them altogether. He seemed quite excited and reckons that we are definitely on the road to fixing our shit, so to speak.

The show was on a channel called Ben TV (don't ask) And the next time I'me channel hopping I'll see if I can get some more pertinent info if anyone is interested.

[Yellow]

I remember watching something similar a few years ago. I am, and always will be, a scientific optimist, and I believe not only will this kind of technology become available at some point in the relatively near future (100 or 200 years?), but that we will develop the maturity to use it properly and safely.

 Frookenhauer, on Feb 28 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

 Yellow, on Feb 6 2009, 08:18 PM, said:

My biggest regret when I die is that I'll never know the future, which pisses me off because the future is more interesting than the present.

Funny you should say that, by my reckoning the world seems to be heading towards that weird dystopian world we see in films like bladerunner...only worse.

That's quite a pessimistic view you have there, man. Our world has its problems, but that has been the same since we learned to walk, talk, and kill each other with sharp things. I think the quality of life (in general, obviously) has probably improved for most people in the world throughout time, and I don't see why it won't continue to do so. Cue historian/socialist jumping in and shitting all over my generalisations

Something terrible could happen, but I don't see it on the horizon. We are much more able to cope with global crises than we ever have been, mainly as a result of technology, a gradual shift in the way we conceive the world/nature (and our place in it) and a better understanding of other cultures. I have total confidence in our ability as a species to deal with the problems we have caused ourself.

 Aptorian, on Feb 28 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

On the other hand I would happily settle for an interesting compromise. Digital upload. Hopefully in another 40-50 years time techology and science has evolved to the point that you could take a photocopy of a persons mind. Uploading everything that makes up your personality, basically meaning you can live on in cyberspace. In there you won't have to fear ane lack of comfort and, expecting the human mind can adapt, you can look forward to an eternity of existance how ever you like. Continue to interact with the outside world, transfer yourself to outside "vehicles", lose yourself in what ever "matrix like" universe you can imagine or... if ever you want to quit. Erase yourself.

Yeah, I'd go with that. I don't see the difference between a real body and a mechanical/electrical framework for your mind. With the right software, and if you wanted it, the latter could convince you that you had the former anyway, so everyone wins... and if you wanted to be in "heaven", it could convince you of that as well. Some kind of routine that enhances your state of bliss, or whatever you perceive heaven to be.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 01 March 2009 - 10:29 AM

[Slow Ben]

Dont really have anything to add to the discussion, but they did the computer thing in "Mt. Dragon" a book by Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child. It was kinda cool.

[Aptorian]

Ray Kurzweil is my idol when it comes to future ideas and predictions. He's one of the most impressive inovators and entrepeneurs that I know of. He's written several cool books about technology, mankind and the future of science.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ray_Kurzweil

I own The Singularity Is Near and The Age of Spiritual Machines. I originally borrowed Spiritual Machines from the library because I wanted to write something about AIs and it was the only book the library had on the subject that wasn't sci-fi. I've since bought that one and Singularity. The ideas are just mindboggling.

http://en.wikipedia....ritual_Machines

http://en.wikipedia....ularity_Is_Near

Here's some videos with him talking of his ideas:

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ray_kur...ansform_us.html

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ray+...4&ct=title#

In his books he likes to make lists of predictions on the developments in the future. This list is from The Singularity is Near:

Quote

2010

* Supercomputers will have the same raw power as human brains (although not yet the equivalently flexible software).
* Computers will disappear as distinct physical objects, meaning many will have nontraditional shapes and/or will be embedded in clothing and everyday objects.
* Full-immersion audio-visual virtual reality will exist.

[edit] 2010s

* Computers become smaller and increasingly integrated into everyday life.
* More and more computer devices will be used as miniature web servers, and more will have their resources pooled for computation.
* High-quality broadband Internet access will become available almost everywhere.
* Eyeglasses that beam images onto the users' retinas to produce virtual reality will be developed. They will also come with speakers or headphone attachments that will complete the experience with sounds. These eyeglasses will become a new medium for advertising as advertising will be wirelessly transmitted to them as one walks by various business establishments.
* The VR glasses will also have built-in computers featuring "virtual assistant" programs that can help the user with various daily tasks. (see Augmented Reality)
* Virtual assistants would be capable of multiple functions. One useful function would be real-time language translation in which words spoken in a foreign language would be translated into text that would appear as subtitles to a user wearing the glasses.
* Cell phones will be built into clothing and will be able to project sounds directly into the ears of their users.
* Advertisements will utilize a new technology whereby two ultrasonic beams can be targeted to intersect at a specific point, delivering a localized sound message that only a single person can hear. This was demonstrated in the films Minority Report and Back to the Future 2.

[edit] 2014

* Automatic house cleaning robots will have become common.

[edit] 2018

* 1013 bits of computer memory--roughly the equivalent of the memory space in a single human brain--

[edit] 2020

* Personal computers will have the same processing power as human brains.

[edit] 2020s

* Computers less than 100 nm in size will be possible.
* As one of their first practical applications, nanomachines will be used for medical purposes.
* Highly advanced medical nanobots will perform detailed brainscans on live patients.
* Accurate computer simulations of the entire human brain will exist due to these hyperaccurate brainscans, and the workings of the brain will be understood.
* Nanobots capable of entering the bloodstream to "feed" cells and extract waste will exist (though not necessarily be in wide use) by the end of this decade. They will make the normal mode of human food consumption obsolete. Thus, humans who have injected these nanobots into their bloodstream will evolve from having a normal human metabolism and become humanoid cyborgs. Eventually, according to Kurzweil, a large percentage of humans will evolve by this process into cyborgs.
* By the late 2020s, nanotech-based manufacturing will be in widespread use, radically altering the economy as all sorts of products can suddenly be produced for a fraction of their traditional-manufacture costs. The true cost of any product is now the amount it takes to download the design schematics.
* Also by the later part of this decade, virtual reality will be so high-quality that it will be indistinguishable from reality.
* The threat posed by genetically engineered pathogens permanently dissipates by the end of this decade as medical nanobots--infinitely more durable, intelligent and capable than any microorganism--become sufficiently advanced.
* A computer will pass the Turing test by the last year of the decade (2029), meaning that it is a Strong AI and can think like a human (though the first A.I. is likely to be the equivalent of a kindergartner). This first A.I. is built around a computer simulation of a human brain, which was made possible by previous, nanotech-guided brainscanning.

[edit] 2025

* The most likely year for the debut of advanced nanotechnology.
* Some military UAVs and land vehicles will be 100% computer-controlled.

[edit] 2030s

* Mind uploading becomes possible.
* Nanomachines could be directly inserted into the brain and could interact with brain cells to totally control incoming and outgoing signals. As a result, truly full-immersion virtual reality could be generated without the need for any external equipment. Afferent nerve pathways could be blocked, totally canceling out the "real" world and leaving the user with only the desired virtual experience.
* Brain nanobots could also elicit emotional responses from users.
* Using brain nanobots, recorded or real-time brain transmissions of a person's daily life known as "experience beamers" will be available for other people to remotely experience. This is very similar to how the characters in Being John Malkovich were able to enter the mind of Malkovich and see the world through his eyes.
* Recreational uses aside, nanomachines in peoples' brains will allow them to greatly expand their cognitive, memory and sensory capabilities, to directly interface with computers, and to "telepathically" communicate with other, similarly augmented humans via wireless networks.
* The same nanotechnology should also allow people to alter the neural connections within their brains, changing the underlying basis for the person's intelligence, memories and personality.

[edit] 2040s

* Human body 3.0 (as Kurzweil calls it) comes into existence. It lacks a fixed, corporeal form and can alter its shape and external appearance at will via foglet-like nanotechnology. Organs are also replaced by superior cybernetic implants.
* People spend most of their time in full-immersion virtual reality (Kurzweil has cited The Matrix as a good example of what the advanced virtual worlds will be like, without the dystopian twist).
* Foglets are in use.

[edit] 2045: The Singularity

* $1000 buys a computer a billion times more intelligent than every human combined. This means that average and even low-end computers are hugely smarter than even highly intelligent, unenhanced humans.
* The Singularity occurs as artificial intelligences surpass human beings as the smartest and most capable life forms on the Earth. Technological development is taken over by the machines, who can think, act and communicate so quickly that normal humans cannot even comprehend what is going on; thus the machines, acting in concert with those humans who have evolved into humanoid androids, achieve effective world domination. The machines enter into a "runaway reaction" of self-improvement cycles, with each new generation of A.I.s appearing faster and faster. From this point onwards, technological advancement is explosive, under the control of the machines, and thus cannot be accurately predicted.
* The Singularity is an extremely disruptive, world-altering event that forever changes the course of human history. The extermination of humanity by violent machines is unlikely (though not impossible) because sharp distinctions between man and machine will no longer exist thanks to the existence of cybernetically enhanced humans and uploaded humans.

[edit] Post-2045: "Waking up" the Universe

* The physical bottom limit to how small computer transistors can be shrunk is reached. From this moment onwards, computers can only be made more powerful if they are made larger in size.
* Because of this, A.I.s convert more and more of the Earth's matter into engineered, computational substrate capable of supporting more A.I.s. until the whole Earth is one, gigantic computer (but some areas will remain set aside as nature preserves).
* At this point, the only possible way to increase the intelligence of the machines any farther is to begin converting all of the matter in the universe into similar massive computers. A.I.s radiate out into space in all directions from the Earth, breaking down whole planets, moons and meteoroids and reassembling them into giant computers. This, in effect, "wakes up" the universe as all the inanimate "dumb" matter (rocks, dust, gases, etc.) is converted into structured matter capable of supporting life (albeit synthetic life).
* Kurzweil predicts that machines might have the ability to make planet-sized computers by 2099, which underscores how enormously technology will advance after the Singularity.
* The process of "waking up" the universe could be complete as early as 2199, or might take billions of years depending on whether or not machines could figure out a way to circumvent the speed of light for the purposes of space travel.
* With the entire universe made into a giant, highly efficient supercomputer, A.I./human hybrids (so integrated that, in truth it is a new category of "life") would have both supreme intelligence and physical control over the universe. Kurzweil suggests that this would open up all sorts of new possibilities, including abrogation of the laws of Physics, interdimensional travel, and a possible infinite extension of existence (true immortality).

[edit] Some indeterminate point within a few decades from now

* Space technology becomes advanced enough to provide the Earth permanent protection from the threat of asteroid impacts.
* The antitechnology "Luddite" movement will grow increasingly vocal and possibly resort to violence, possibly a new World War, as these people become enraged over the emergence of new technologies that threaten traditional attitudes regarding the nature of human life (radical life extension, genetic engineering, cybernetics) and the supremacy of mankind (artificial intelligence). Though the Luddites might, at best, succeed in delaying the Singularity, the march of technology is irresistible and they will inevitably fail in keeping the world frozen at a fixed level of development. However, some nature preserves may be set aside for them to live in.
* The emergence of distributed energy grids and full-immersion virtual reality will, when combined with high bandwidth Internet, enable the ultimate in telecommuting. This, in turn, will make cities obsolete since workers will no longer need to be located near their workplaces. The decentralization of the population will make societies less vulnerable to terrorist and military attacks.

The predictions I immediatly clamped down on in that book was the year where he suspects mind uploads are possible. 2030s. That gives me approximatly another ten years for the technology to further develop before I get so old that my mind is turning into mush.

Of course a lot of his ideas are pretty radical. And they wont all develop as fast as he thinks. They are possible but you have powerfull opponents like religious groups, soccer moms and old fashioned politicians and cautious governments that are going to hamper these developments.

[frookenhauer]

Yellow: Pessimistic? Quite possibly, but backed up by what I been seeing, man. The working life is being steadily increased, the working day too. Generally wages in the UK have gone up not even in line with inflation, yet fuel + food have gone up by a staggering 40%. The divide between the worlds rich and poor is growing. I pulled out some states for are we good or bad thread, here they are:

 Frookenhauer, on Feb 5 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

There is a simple answer to this, but its better to show by example:

40% of the world population accounts for 5% of Global income. The richest 20% accounts for 75% of Global income (Pareto principle anyone?). And the gap is widening.

UNICEF reckons that about 30,000 children die each day through poverty. By the time you read this line...

Nearly a billion People entered the 21st century unable to read or even sign their own names.

Less than 1% of the amount spent on Weapons worldwide is needed to send every child to school.

Diseases are rampant with Aids and Malaria at the top of the Agenda.

Water - Its a big issue 1.1 Billion people have inadequate access to water

Of the 2.2 billion children 1 billion lives in poverty

Food - top 20% consume 76% of total food and the bottom 20% consume, wait for it, 1.5%

1.6 billion people live without electricity so much for giving them laptops

For every $1 in aid a developing country receives $25 dollars is paid out in debt repayments.

The following table shows that while poverty in China has fallen the RotW is still in limbo. I wonder what the figures would look like if they took India out of the equation as well.



Global Priority................................$U.S. Billions
Cosmetics in the United States..................8
Ice cream in Europe..............................11
Perfumes in Europe and the United States...12
Pet foods in Europe and the United States...17
Business entertainment in Japan...............35
Cigarettes in Europe.............................50
Alcoholic drinks in Europe.......................105
Narcotics drugs in the world....................400
Military spending in the world..................780

And compare that to what was estimated as additional costs to achieve universal access to basic social services in all developing countries:

Global Priority.............................$U.S. Billions
Basic education for all...........................6
Water and sanitation for all....................9
Reproductive health for all women...........12
Basic health and nutrition......................13

We live in a fucked up world and yes we are so, so bad. Glad I live on the right side of the fence. Does that make me bad?

I sourced the info from ->HERE<-

It kind of shows us to be a pretty insensitive bunch. Basically I reckon the average worker is going to be just a cog in the machine of the future...And as the rich get richer the chance of people reaching that stratospheric level will diminish after all the rich are very good at protecting their positions

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong, but if I'm right...I know which side of the fence I want to be sitting on.


Apt: I followed some of those links and it certainly makes for some interesting reading...except that bit about u sbecoming superfluous. I'm going to be augmenting myself up, cos aint no way no bunch of transistors is going to outplay me

[Yellow]

 Frookenhauer, on Mar 1 2009, 07:37 PM, said:

It kind of shows us to be a pretty insensitive bunch. Basically I reckon the average worker is going to be just a cog in the machine of the future...And as the rich get richer the chance of people reaching that stratospheric level will diminish after all the rich are very good at protecting their positions

There's always been a country full of cogs in various machines. But I'd rather be one today than one in Victorian Britain. Not only do workers have more rights these days (in the part of the universe that I live in), but they get paid enough to own cars, watch Sky TV, get (almost) free dental care, and send their kids to school/university. There are always going to be people in a bad situation in the world, there's no denying that... but the average worker (in the UK at least) is a lot better off than he/she used to be.

I don't see any reason to believe that trend will reverse. How about some of those stats showing the good things that we've accomplished over the past X years?

[Aptorian]

But what happens as technology and globalisation continues to advance and the normal jobs of the working man becomes obsolete? In the future, like in 50 years, much of our production will be handled by automatics because it's cheaper and easier. I don't think our current issues will have much to do with the future of tomorrow.

[Yellow]

 Aptorian, on Mar 1 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

But what happens as technology and globalisation continues to advance and the normal jobs of the working man becomes obsolete? In the future, like in 50 years, much of our production will be handled by automatics because it's cheaper and easier. I don't think our current issues will have much to do with the future of tomorrow.

Jobs change. There's not many people working at looms in Manchester these days, and not that many piling coal into steam engines, but it's heaving nonetheless. The people who would have taken production jobs will do something else instead.

What will these jobs be? I don't know, no more than anyone in 1909 could have predicted IT call centres.

[Illuyankas]

I'm not looking forward to working down the plastic mines, I can tell you.

[masan's saddle]

 Yellow, on Mar 1 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

 Frookenhauer, on Mar 1 2009, 07:37 PM, said:

It kind of shows us to be a pretty insensitive bunch. Basically I reckon the average worker is going to be just a cog in the machine of the future...And as the rich get richer the chance of people reaching that stratospheric level will diminish after all the rich are very good at protecting their positions

This is all very Brave New World,1984 and Brazil, Frook, and scary to boot. I sense that as " globalisation " speeds along it's merry way and we are told that opportunities abound, this unfortunatley will not be the case for the vast majority of our new global community. The stats you posted previously illustrated well how the rich will protect their positions, mainly through our own fears and complicity ( ice cream !!!, vanity, fags, booze and drugs) and of course just in case anyone kicks up too much of a stink, 780 billion on state of the art ass kickery.

There's always been a country full of cogs in various machines. But I'd rather be one today than one in Victorian Britain. Not only do workers have more rights these days (in the part of the universe that I live in), but they get paid enough to own cars, watch Sky TV, get (almost) free dental care, and send their kids to school/university. There are always going to be people in a bad situation in the world, there's no denying that... but the average worker (in the UK at least) is a lot better off than he/she used to be.

I don't see any reason to believe that trend will reverse. How about some of those stats showing the good things that we've accomplished over the past X years?

The trend has already started to reverse, yes workers have more rights but they don't count for shit when enforced redundancies and job losses are starting to escalate. These days if your not working a car is a pretty expensive luxury and kids going to uni ? , i'm still paying my loans 12 years after graduating and for many, there are not enough jobs in their chosen field when they do graduate. The average worker may well be materially better off but at what cost ?
I should think the credit crunch is really clarifying what is important for many people at the moment, whether that 50" plasma with the sky XL package was worth it ? Yes we are demonstrably better off than we were 100 odd years ago, but that progress has arguably been made on credit, and to the detriment of countless others around the world. It's not your fault and it's not mine, it's the post colonial capitalist system that we live in and it sucks balls.
I'm over simplifying I know but the state of our planet really depresses me sometimes.

To end on a happy note, just watching the news and it would appear Fred Goodwin ( RBS Head Bastard) is not gonna get his pension of 600,000 odd grand a year. Good.
Also I am not all doom and gloom, I think the advances made in medicine, social care and societies attitude towards disability and general difference from the norm, are a positive good. I would also like to think that future generations are far better qualified to look after our planet.
And didn't they put a man on the moon ?

[masan's saddle]

Oops I messed up the quote thingy, the first paragraph is me responding to Frook, not Yellow.

Sorry I'm a noob.