[blackzoid]

SPOILERS for TTH








Ok, after doing a re-reread of Return I now think that the central timeline issue between the books , Draconus been relesed from Dragnipur before TtH is not true.
My evidence for:
1: Nait first meets Heuk on the hill when he starts to perform his ritual.
p 595, from Naits point of view
"But it was not a true silence. Something filled it. He strained to listen: the faintest rumbling and rattle of chain? Deep reverberations such as wheels groaning in the dark? "

Nait is hearing the sounds of what is inside Dragnipur! This is (presumably) not what Dragnipur will be like after its destroyed by Brood's hammer. So I think Dragnipur is intact at this moment in time. And Draconus is still inside it.

2:p599
Nait see's who we assume to be Draconus

"He'd never seen a Tiste Andii but had heard them described often enough. This one resembled such: tall, black as night, almond eyes, long straight hair..........And it seemed to Nait that the figure was not entirely there; he could see through it. Something hung at its side. Nait almost looked there but pulled his gaze away in time: a void hung there yammering terror at him. It seemed to suck in the night."

My theory is that this figure is indeed Draconus but he is sending out, a projection of himself from INSIDE Dragnipur. thats why Nait can see through him. The void at his side is a representation of the sword. (Yes I know that this is the same description of the pre-sword Dragnipur void which was also in the Prologue, but you know the theory isn't perfect)
In TtH Gruntle and co were able to get inside Dragnipur through a warren. I'd say that Dragnipur was "leaking" at this point and Draconus was able to get this representation out.

As for Draconus looking different in TtH(not specifically described as Tiste Andii and has a beard), we already had Osserc looking different to how he was in HoC and didn't Envy say before that Anomander disguised himself as a human bodyguard and as a Segulah in two seperate incidents? Perhaps the Tiste Andii shape was also a representation of Draconus as a symbol rather then an accurate description?


Evidence against:
Heuk does say to Possum that the King of Night has returned. I can't explain this, except to hope that Heuk misspoke, hopefully he meant to say that Draconus was just getting ready to return.

[Urizen]

blackzoid, on Oct 5 2008, 08:36 PM, said:

SPOILERS for TTH








Ok, after doing a re-reread of Return I now think that the central timeline issue between the books , Draconus been relesed from Dragnipur before TtH is not true.
My evidence for:
1: Nait first meets Heuk on the hill when he starts to perform his ritual.
p 595, from Naits point of view
"But it was not a true silence. Something filled it. He strained to listen: the faintest rumbling and rattle of chain? Deep reverberations such as wheels groaning in the dark? "

Nait is hearing the sounds of what is inside Dragnipur! This is (presumably) not what Dragnipur will be like after its destroyed by Brood's hammer. So I think Dragnipur is intact at this moment in time. And Draconus is still inside it.

2:p599
Nait see's who we assume to be Draconus

"He'd never seen a Tiste Andii but had heard them described often enough. This one resembled such: tall, black as night, almond eyes, long straight hair..........And it seemed to Nait that the figure was not entirely there; he could see through it. Something hung at its side. Nait almost looked there but pulled his gaze away in time: a void hung there yammering terror at him. It seemed to suck in the night."

My theory is that this figure is indeed Draconus but he is sending out, a projection of himself from INSIDE Dragnipur. thats why Nait can see through him. The void at his side is a representation of the sword. (Yes I know that this is the same description of the pre-sword Dragnipur void which was also in the Prologue, but you know the theory isn't perfect)
In TtH Gruntle and co were able to get inside Dragnipur through a warren. I'd say that Dragnipur was "leaking" at this point and Draconus was able to get this representation out.

As for Draconus looking different in TtH(not specifically described as Tiste Andii and has a beard), we already had Osserc looking different to how he was in HoC and didn't Envy say before that Anomander disguised himself as a human bodyguard and as a Segulah in two seperate incidents? Perhaps the Tiste Andii shape was also a representation of Draconus as a symbol rather then an accurate description?


Evidence against:
Heuk does say to Possum that the King of Night has returned. I can't explain this, except to hope that Heuk misspoke, hopefully he meant to say that Draconus was just getting ready to return.

I couldn't agree more with this theory.
Also at one point in TTH, in the Dragnipur, the Mage from Pale, Ditch, notices that he can acess a sliver of his magical power as Chaos comes closer. If a "regular" Mage can do this then presumably Draconus should be able to do so as well.

regarding the King of Night has returned bit, maybe Heuk is mistaken. Suppose Heuk usually "feels" 0,1% or something of Draconus power, If he then suddenly "feels" for instance a hundredfold increse in this power, it's not inconcivable that Heuk would believe that Draconus was loose when in actuality Draconus is only partially free from Dragnipur.

[Abyss]

Bingo. Nicely reasoned on both posts. Imaginary rep sent your imaginary way.

I was falling back on the 'Andii' being a sort of residual manifestation of Draconus, but i like your reasoning better. Dragnipur was weakening so influence was leaking out. We saw this with Apsalara too when she fixed her hands, albeit right at the end of TtH. It makes sense that Draconus, being an EG, would have more mojo, even if he himself didn't realize it, being preoccupied with events in Dragnipur.

- Abyss, master of subliminal mojo...

[Lisheo]

Well, Draconus IS called a Champion of Darkness, so I think we can assume he might occasionally take the form of one of the Children of Darkness.

[Danyah]

Nah, champion or night is/was Anomander. Need a ref, but iirc Draco's liege or consort to mother dark, so maybe he's ano's daddy.

TtH minor spoiler

Spoiler

The only timeline issue that might rise is: how did Traveller get from Quon to shipwrecking in south genabackis in almost no time? Intervention from ST?

This post has been edited by Danyah: 07 October 2008 - 10:45 AM

[Lisheo]

Before Anomander was about, Draconus was the champion of all things Dark it pretty much says so in the opening poem.
In reply:

Spoiler

I assumed ST let him use Shadow, aye.

[Epiph]

Danyah, on Oct 7 2008, 05:43 AM, said:

TtH minor spoiler

Spoiler

The only timeline issue that might rise is: how did Traveller get from Quon to shipwrecking in south genabackis in almost no time? Intervention from ST?

If we're assuming that there ISN'T a timeline issue between TtH and RotCG, then

Spoiler

Trav doesn't NEED to get to Genabackis quickly. If Draconus is actually still in a weakened by functioning Dragnipur, Traveller still has time to get shipwrecked, etc.

[Giles]

Danyah, on Oct 7 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

Nah, champion or night is/was Anomander. Need a ref, but iirc Draco's liege or consort to mother dark, so maybe he's ano's daddy.

TtH minor spoiler

Spoiler

The only timeline issue that might rise is: how did Traveller get from Quon to shipwrecking in south genabackis in almost no time? Intervention from ST?

Anomander is the champion of darkness whilst Draconus is champion of night. or at least thats how i read it.

This post has been edited by baudin: 11 October 2008 - 09:24 AM

[Abyss]

One way or another, ICE is telling us there is a link between Draconus and Kurald Galain. How far that goes and what it means is still fairly undefined. We've never known, before RCG, what Drac's aspect was supposed to be.

It also adds an interesting dimension to why he tied Dragnipur to 'saving' Mommy D in the first place before Rake took it from him. Remember the coment in MT that Mommy D's first children were NOT the Tiste Andii? Drac and Rake may have been engaged in some sibling rivalry there, which ALSO explains why, if that was Draconus (or his echo) speaking to Nait in Heuk's ritual, he appeared as a Tiste Andii.

The confusing element is the 'all devouring black hole' Nait observes at the 'Andii's hip, but both Rake and Drac have reason to manifest that, and Heuk's perception of his god may go back to a time when Drac was the one carrying Dragnipur, as seen in the prologue.

Btw,Nightchill, in MoI iirc, is said (uncertainly) to use Rashan, which may have just been how her particular flavour of Kurald Galain was perceived.

- Abyss, still in the dark...

[Old Hunch Arbat]

My impression was that this was just a projection of Rake, or Rake himself.

In TtH Rake mentions the need for multiple plans to succeed, all according to some critical timeline. To me, the manifestation of KG is just Rake, using his uber Tiste Andii powers to project either a substantial image of himself, or himself, in person, onto that battle field. That Dragnipur would feel nasty to anyone standing close to Rake, particularly if he unsheathed it (it is usually on his back, no?) would not be surprising.

I'm assuming that Hood has not yet had his head lopped off and Traveler hasn't killed Rake, etc. So if their's a manifestation of a Tiste Andii, and he's wearing Dragnipur, wouldn't the "Common things are common - if you hear hoofbeats outside your window, think horses not zebras" theory apply here?

Or is it the wearing of armor that suggests this is not Rake? Do our heroes never change their clothes?

OHA

[Danyah]

Logical timeline IMO:

Drift Avalii: Traveller saves the day, takes grief/vengeance from Nimander
Goes sailing again, shipwrecks, ends up on the stormwall.
RotCG
Sails to Gena, shipwrecks again, getting good at it...
TtH

Otherwise the 1164 used by ICE would be completely wrong. (SE gave up using exact dates after the RG intro mistake pointed out by some rabid fans in these here forums ). RotCG happens more or less parallel to RG, so the darujisthan convergence hasn't taken place by the time Haek unveils KG.

[Danyah]

Logical timeline IMO:

Drift Avalii: Traveller saves the day, takes grief/vengeance from Nimander
Goes sailing again, shipwrecks, ends up on the stormwall.
RotCG
Sails to Gena, shipwrecks again, getting good at it...
TtH

Otherwise the 1164 used by ICE would be completely wrong. (SE gave up using exact dates after the RG intro mistake pointed out by some rabid fans in these here forums )

[Epiph]

Old Hunch Arbat, on Oct 13 2008, 05:11 PM, said:

My impression was that this was just a projection of Rake, or Rake himself.

Wasn't the Tiste Andii in the KG unveiling described as having black hair?

(At work, can't check)

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Good point re: the hair. I'll check as well.

OHA

[Lisheo]

Yeah, black hair... There goes the Rake theory, I suppose.

[Traveller]

It does seem like one of those moments that will be explained later, like the Edur corpse in the fissure in MOI.

I can't figure out who it is, anyway. I'm re-reading TtH at the moment, and a lot more is becoming clear - like the Aranatha storyline.

[Lisheo]

Arantha's storyline? Damn man, if you've any insights, PM me, please, she drives me mad.

I honestly think its probably Draconus with another Timeline mess-up, how many Lords of Elder Night/Darkness can there be after all?

[Traveller]

Possibly a future/past Draconus? We haven't actually had confirmation that

Spoiler

Dragnipur is destroyed

although it seems unlikely that it didn't happen. That only leaves a summoning from the past - or someone else entirely.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 15 October 2008 - 01:29 PM

[polishgenius]

I'm going with the 'aspect while still trapped' theory - I didn't catch the wagons, even on a reread of that scene, but the fact that he's translucent suggests it.
For the void, I'm thinking that, because it's an apparition, it's just something that goes with his thought of himself. Although what I really think is that it was a tool for us to identify him rather than any concrete plot point. Bear in mind that at the start, Denuth talks of it as being Dragnipur-in-progress, and I think if Dragnipur were shattered then the void would be freed totally, not returned to an earlier form.

[Lister of Smeg]

Very minor TtH spoilers here.

Page 752 of TtH:

Spoiler

"[Ditch] studied Draconus, and the man seemed to darken, blur, become strangely indistinct. Ditch gasped, and in the next instant Draconus was once more as he had always been."

So could this be when Drac appears in RotCG? He does manage to force a part of himself into the world? Along with the sounds of chains and a wagon in the scene as mentioned above, it seems likely to me.

Mod edit: Please spoiler anything thats a spoiler, however small.
Also, people, be warned, this could give a little away about where some important stuff in TTH is set.
General advice is dont read spoilers unless you've read the book.

This post has been edited by Grief: 05 December 2008 - 02:56 PM