[Terez]

¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶, on Oct 21 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

having such a strong overarcing story helps make up for the admittedly boring stuff like faile's kidnapping.

I actually enjoyed that plotline. The frustration of its duration, I think, was intended to give us a bit of perspective on exactly how frustrating it was for Perrin. After Crossroads, when it still wasn't resolved...well, imagine how Perrin feels! lol...the Aram bits of Perrin's plotline were the only bits that I found truly boring, and Aram didn't take up too much plot space.

¶ said:

also lol the whole "wot is too long books X to KOD-1 were soooo useless" is equal to like the "ppl only like jordan becuz he uses small wordz" cliche. real talk winter's heart is the best book jordan ever wrote and the key to the whole series: thematically, structurally and morally.

I agree it was a great book - the last chapter is probably my favorite chapter in the series.

I don't get why you keep bringing morality into it, though.

¶ said:

also his characters are way, way more likeable and i think, knowable than erikson's. in part yes becuz they are shallower. its those two things way more than the prose that made the books popular.

I don't think that RJ's characters are in any way shallower than Erikson - in fact, that's the reason why a lot of WoT fans can't get into Erikson. The characters aren't developed very deeply in point of view. RJ's characters are often caricaturish in nature, that is, caricatures of stereotypes of human behavior, but they're hardly shallow. I could write a dissertation on Rand's psychological issues...

[globish rip]

my impression is that lots of ppl find wot chars more likeable? like would kick it with two rivers crew for sure. in part because they are knowable? explicable? even rand's motivations are made pretty clear he has issues, sure, but he still seems like a bro. erikson chars motivations are more complex they are often more damaged and conflicted i think. this actually ties into wat i meant by moral there's a surety that runs through wot the good vs. evil its a series about ppl doing the right thing. often times erikson is about ppl doing the least worst thing.

i think that moral clarity plays as much if not more a part in making wot more popular than malaz than language or even the chars, plots &c.

[Mentalist]

hmm
could be (regarding just the last point)
personally, at this point, having read a decent amount of fantasy, I find myself disliking the simple "good vs evil" clear-cut approach. one of the reasons why I enjoy SE so much, is because with very few exceptions none of his characters can be described as "pure evil". the very boundary of "good and evil" is blurred, which, imho is a big plus.

[murphy72]

caladanbrood, on Oct 21 2008, 02:23 PM, said:

The only thing Jordan has going for him over Erikson is a significantly larger fan-base... nothing in the actual books is superior to Erikson. But hey, you're allowed your opinion, even if you have a spammer's username...

Before Jordon, the only author to do a long series was David Wingrove and that was SF, not fantasy. You might say that RJ paved the way for SE to be able to do more than a trilogy.



(I forgot the E.C. Tubb Dumerest series which was about 22 books starting back in the late 60s.)

This post has been edited by murphy72: 22 October 2008 - 05:34 AM

[Terez]

murphy72, on Oct 21 2008, 10:38 PM, said:

Before Jordon, the only author to do a long series was David Wingrove and that was SF, not fantasy. You might say that RJ paved the way for SE to be able to do more than a trilogy.

This is true. And that's of course not trying to say that he's responsible for SE having a career because in the same vein you could say he's responsible for Tairy having a career as well...

I understand why people got frustrated with WoT after around Lord of Chaos (for some it was earlier, but for most, it was at some point after Lord of Chaos), because the first six books, especially books 4-6, were action-packed, fantastically written in nearly every respect (opinions will differ on which respects were the exceptions), and books 4-6 begin to show how much of the plot was predetermined in the first book (and how many details of the way the world works were not, such as some tEotW-isms having to do with the Power, but those are fairly easy to overlook IMO).

The later books also shed more light on how much was predetermined in the early books, but the action is slower, so that more details about the side plots, the world, and the characters can be given - which is why a good chunk of RJ's long term fan base is not disappointed. That's what we wanted, and most of us are pretty confident that the action in the last book is going to be extremely fulfilling, cause we've been putting our heads together for years to try to figure out exactly what's going to happen at the end, and we've got a great deal of it figured out. And it's looking good.

By the way, I should clarify this comment I made earlier:

Terez said:

I also prefer RJ's prose - SE is more attached to obscure vocabulary but I don't think that makes his prose any more artful.

I also enjoy SE's prose - a lot. That's why I'm here. I like it better than GRRM's most of the time, and I can't think of many who come close (not that I'm the most well-read person here). I particularly enjoyed SE's style in TtH, which it seems a lot of people were disappointed with. I loved it - he made some really nice analogies with his narrative, and I'm not talking about the ones like Big Oil, but the smaller, more profound ones. In fact....

Spoiler

I wonder if the narrative was inserted into the book after he wrote it - the story itself is very dark and brooding, filled with amazingly detailed descriptions of blood and gore and rotting flesh, etc., and some have mentioned that this could have something to do with his father's death. But the narration of Kruppe, to me, transforms the book into something different. I really liked that balance, which is so odd as to seem almost anachronistic.

[Abyss]

murphy72, on Oct 21 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

...

Before Jordon, the only author to do a long series was David Wingrove and that was SF, not fantasy. ...

...ah yes, Wingrove's Chung Kuo... which might also be said to set the standard for author implosion given the drek that was the last two books of that otherwise exceptional series.

I'm dredging my thinkymeatz here, but Feist was already way into the Magician series (jncluding the Empire stuff with Wurts) by the time RJ got rolling with WoT. Ed Greenwood did some fairly extensive DnD based books by then, the Myth Inc books were well on their way, there was the Dungeon! series that ran like twenty books... point beaing RJ may have been the first major one, but not the first.

Terez, on Oct 22 2008, 12:38 AM, said:

....The later books also shed more light on how much was predetermined in the early books, but the action is slower, so that more details about the side plots, the world, and the characters can be given - which is why a good chunk of RJ's long term fan base is not disappointed. That's what we wanted,...

Yes, yes, more, MORE dress descriptions, MORE random Aes Sedai internal squabbling, ...more, MORE GIVE US MORE!!!!!


...and while you're at it, maybe have Matt spend a few more books stuck under a wall, cuz that rawked!

I'm being facetious, but i squarely fall within the crowd that really enjoyed WoT up until Lord of Chaos and was saddened when things imploded after that, then encouraged as of the finale of Winter's Heart.

Quote

...and most of us are pretty confident that the action in the last book is going to be extremely fulfilling, cause we've been putting our heads together for years to try to figure out exactly what's going to happen at the end, and we've got a great deal of it figured out. ...

I know this goes without saying, but Sanderson could tie up every major plot line in the entire series and someone will still whine because he didn't explain why Aes Sedai X's allegiance to the Purple Ajah changed. That said, am also looking fwd to it.

Back on topic, it's difficult to put say, Path of Daggers, in the category of 'worse fantasy books ever' - it's hard to ignore the series' commercial success, tho' my eyes bleed just glancing at any bestseller list that includes a Goodkind novel, so that particular qualifier is mixed.

- Abyss, ...crosses his arms and huffs...

[polishgenius]

Abyss, on Oct 22 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

murphy72, on Oct 21 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

...

Before Jordon, the only author to do a long series was David Wingrove and that was SF, not fantasy. ...

...ah yes, Wingrove's Chung Kuo... which might also be said to set the standard for author implosion given the drek that was the last two books of that otherwise exceptional series.

I'm dredging my thinkymeatz here, but Feist was already way into the Magician series (jncluding the Empire stuff with Wurts) by the time RJ got rolling with WoT. Ed Greenwood did some fairly extensive DnD based books by then, the Myth Inc books were well on their way, there was the Dungeon! series that ran like twenty books... point beaing RJ may have been the first major one, but not the first.

I don't know about the others, but Feist wasn't writing one long series - he writes series of books that stand together as trilogies or whatever and have a concrete structure without the larger narrative. More akin to Bakker than Jordan.

[Terez]

The Belgariad was also well under way when RJ got started.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

And Donaldson had already written not only the first, but also the second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.

[murphy72]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on Oct 22 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

And Donaldson had already written not only the first, but also the second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.

But that was two trilogies, not a long series such as RJ and SE wrote and is writing.

[Abyss]

fair point that sets of trilogies don't necessarily equate with ten book epics. I suppose the point it that RJ wasn't the originator of the multi-volume epic, but he was the one to write perhaps the first such epic to really draw attention.

Another element to that is that WoT 'grew up' with the rise of the internut as a publicly accessible medium - give or take a year or so here or there, it's the series most likely to have been sitting on the bedside table circa early-mid 90s while genre fans were figuring out this new computer thing that let you do stuff besides just look at porn and pictures of cats. Ie, talk to fans of the same genre all over the world. Wow. I think i'm on to something there...

- Abyss, sometimes amazes even himself...

[lord of tragedy]

¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶¶, on Oct 21 2008, 11:40 PM, said:

As for my opinion, one thing I think RJ has going over Erikson is the intricate framework of the plot

i agree but will admit there's a perspective issue here. i do think that the strong sense of continuity between books is an asset for wot but understand those that perfer the looser style of malaz. having such a strong overarcing story helps make up for the admittedly boring stuff like faile's kidnapping. whereas boring parts of erkison books weigh heavier, somehow, since they seem to count for more.

also lol the whole "wot is too long books X to KOD-1 were soooo useless" is equal to like the "ppl only like jordan becuz he uses small wordz" cliche. real talk winter's heart is the best book jordan ever wrote and the key to the whole series: thematically, structurally and morally. what ppl here seem to be glossing over is that jordan's books are a v. moral work they operate on a really basic v. primal level. also his characters are way, way more likeable and i think, knowable than erikson's. in part yes becuz they are shallower. its those two things way more than the prose that made the books popular.

also p.s. i can change my scrn name just tell me how

what the fuck? you mean beneath all the braid tugging and dreams of shagging 3 women at once there was a thematic structural and moral framework within jordans work? that faux tao de ching crap? or the jungian male female kabalah shit? and here was i thinking it was meandering and naieve, glib to the point of nausea and suffering terminal flaws around faile's kidnap. its the end of the post now so i'm off to fight a foresaken.

have you been sent here to tempt me?

[Terez]

Abyss, on Oct 22 2008, 04:55 PM, said:

fair point that sets of trilogies don't necessarily equate with ten book epics. I suppose the point it that RJ wasn't the originator of the multi-volume epic, but he was the one to write perhaps the first such epic to really draw attention.

None of the others that have been mentioned were series with volumes approaching 1000 pages each, either (correct me if I'm wrong - but I know that the Feist and Eddings books weren't all that hefty - few hundred pages or so each).

Abyss said:

Another element to that is that WoT 'grew up' with the rise of the internut as a publicly accessible medium - give or take a year or so here or there, it's the series most likely to have been sitting on the bedside table circa early-mid 90s while genre fans were figuring out this new computer thing that let you do stuff besides just look at porn and pictures of cats. Ie, talk to fans of the same genre all over the world.

There's that, too.

[Abyss]

Terez, on Oct 22 2008, 06:29 PM, said:

...
None of the others that have been mentioned were series with volumes approaching 1000 pages each, either (correct me if I'm wrong - but I know that the Feist and Eddings books weren't all that hefty - few hundred pages or so each).

Good point. Something to be said for sheer volume. The doorstopper novel pre RJ tended to be War and Peace type historical monsters and the odd SF chunk a la Simmons, Herbert, etc. I can't recall a true monster... Weis and Hickman did some fairly chunky books in the DEATHGATE CYCLE, but i doubt they hit the same page count even so.

Terez, on Oct 22 2008, 06:29 PM, said:

Abyss said:

Another element to that is that WoT 'grew up' with the rise of the internut as a publicly accessible medium - give or take a year or so here or there, it's the series most likely to have been sitting on the bedside table circa early-mid 90s while genre fans were figuring out this new computer thing that let you do stuff besides just look at porn and pictures of cats. Ie, talk to fans of the same genre all over the world.

There's that, too.

- Abyss, ...AM GENIUS, HEAR ME MEOW!!!!

[globish rip]

you mean beneath all the braid tugging and dreams of shagging 3 women at once there was a thematic structural and moral framework within jordans work?

y u actin like girlz and threesomes are lame?? lol forest for trees here. "parts of the book were boring to me and the themes underdeveloped therefore it doesn't even count as literature" is maybe glib and nainaeve. but u seem to have some really fresh and interesting takes on fantasy literature and i suspect life in general plz to share more.

and suffering terminal flaws around faile's kidnap

is this a heart tissue joek????

[Mentalist]

Abyss, on Oct 22 2008, 07:30 PM, said:

Terez, on Oct 22 2008, 06:29 PM, said:

...
None of the others that have been mentioned were series with volumes approaching 1000 pages each, either (correct me if I'm wrong - but I know that the Feist and Eddings books weren't all that hefty - few hundred pages or so each).

Good point. Something to be said for sheer volume. The doorstopper novel pre RJ tended to be War and Peace type historical monsters and the odd SF chunk a la Simmons, Herbert, etc. I can't recall a true monster... Weis and Hickman did some fairly chunky books in the DEATHGATE CYCLE, but i doubt they hit the same page count even so.

Terez, on Oct 22 2008, 06:29 PM, said:

Abyss said:

Another element to that is that WoT 'grew up' with the rise of the internut as a publicly accessible medium - give or take a year or so here or there, it's the series most likely to have been sitting on the bedside table circa early-mid 90s while genre fans were figuring out this new computer thing that let you do stuff besides just look at porn and pictures of cats. Ie, talk to fans of the same genre all over the world.

There's that, too.

- Abyss, ...AM GENIUS, HEAR ME MEOW!!!!

Deathgate Cycle (my intro into fantasy, btw), were about 500-600 pgs each, I believe....

[alt146]

I have to agree that Eddings and Fiest aren't exactly epic writers. IIRC, the belgariad was originally meant to be a trilogy, but the publishers decided to split it into 5 parts. And Feist writes sets of trilogies that are effectively standalone, although the tend to feature the same characters. And maybe a little explanatory paragraph somewhere that explains how the Big Bad that got taken out in the last series was actually just the decoy/puppet for this new Big Bad that needs to be taken out.

I also think WOT was meant to be 6 books initially, but this quickly exploded in the way fantasy tends to. I must admit, I'm looking forward to the final book. Knife of Dreams was pretty solid and I'm hoping Sanderson does a good job.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

murphy72, on Oct 22 2008, 02:01 PM, said:

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on Oct 22 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

And Donaldson had already written not only the first, but also the second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.

But that was two trilogies, not a long series such as RJ and SE wrote and is writing.

Two connected trilogies, in essence one 6 book series. Which in my opinion makes it relevant to refute the idea that no one had written a long fantasy series before RJ. Plus now he's writing 4 more, which bumps it up to 10.

[Cougar]

By the beard of Zeus guys could we please write in English not in text speak, it's immensely frustrating and makes it look like there is a 10 year old chav writting. We aren't asking it to be spellchecked or even have decent grammar just sentences with real words.

[lord of tragedy]

square bracket dollar sign, on Oct 23 2008, 02:33 AM, said:

you mean beneath all the braid tugging and dreams of shagging 3 women at once there was a thematic structural and moral framework within jordans work?

y u actin like girlz and threesomes are lame?? lol forest for trees here. "parts of the book were boring to me and the themes underdeveloped therefore it doesn't even count as literature" is maybe glib and nainaeve. but u seem to have some really fresh and interesting takes on fantasy literature and i suspect life in general plz to share more.

and suffering terminal flaws around faile's kidnap

is this a heart tissue joek????

seriously, have you been sent here to tempt me?
are you derrida in disguise?

This post has been edited by Cougar: 23 October 2008 - 11:10 AM