[Lisheo]

High House Death cannot be left unoccupied, cus then youve got a) High House Life running amok, and nowhere for non-religious spirits to go. The world would become like Letheras, filled with spirits of the dead and undead, and I don't think it was ever supposed to be like that. I like the idea that Itkovian would be the one to gather the dead to him, seems his kinda thing, he is dead himself too.
However, that wouldn't be possible as it is, because he's trapped in his barrow, like the CG, that is the extent of his realm. If I might hazard a guess, I would suspect that the position of King of the Dead might be taken up by someone like Dassem's daughter(she has to have some purpose, maybe that was always the reason why Hood took her), or maybe the Bridgeburners(Guardians of the Dead)

[Urizen]

Lisheo, on Oct 3 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

If I might hazard a guess, I would suspect that the position of King of the Dead might be taken up by someone like Dassem's daughter(she has to have some purpose, maybe that was always the reason why Hood took her), or maybe the Bridgeburners(Guardians of the Dead)

Maybe she's the Queen of High House Death. I image that she has some sort connection to Hood, with Daseem being Knight of Death and all. Seeing how Lady Envy was supposed to participate somehow and her failing to show up led to Daseem's daughter filling in, I have to say that Daseem's daughter has to have had some Power of her own. If some sort of random virginal sacrifice was called for at the Chaining, It would be monumentally stupid to use Daseem's daughter when any old girl would suffice. Also, the hints of Hood's wife we get from various persons, Toc and Seguleh Second, and how she's supposed to be some skeletal hag seems like like a red herring.

On a similar note; With Hood gone as King do the other positions get atomaticley vacated or does the people in the lesser positions remain?( at least until a new King of High House Death appears) Judging from TTH Toc the Younger and the Toc and Seguleh Second seem to be out as Herald and Knight respectively but they seem to be let go by Hood personally rather than some sort of atomatic reaction to Hood stopping being King in HHD.

[Ammanas]

Urizen, on Oct 3 2008, 05:53 AM, said:

Lisheo, on Oct 3 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

If I might hazard a guess, I would suspect that the position of King of the Dead might be taken up by someone like Dassem's daughter(she has to have some purpose, maybe that was always the reason why Hood took her), or maybe the Bridgeburners(Guardians of the Dead)

Maybe she's the Queen of High House Death. I image that she has some sort connection to Hood, with Daseem being Knight of Death and all. Seeing how Lady Envy was supposed to participate somehow and her failing to show up led to Daseem's daughter filling in, I have to say that Daseem's daughter has to have had some Power of her own. If some sort of random virginal sacrifice was called for at the Chaining, It would be monumentally stupid to use Daseem's daughter when any old girl would suffice. Also, the hints of Hood's wife we get from various persons, Toc and Seguleh Second, and how she's supposed to be some skeletal hag seems like like a red herring.

On a similar note; With Hood gone as King do the other positions get atomaticley vacated or does the people in the lesser positions remain?( at least until a new King of High House Death appears) Judging from TTH Toc the Younger and the Toc and Seguleh Second seem to be out as Herald and Knight respectively but they seem to be let go by Hood personally rather than some sort of atomatic reaction to Hood stopping being King in HHD.

How bout Dunsparrow and her Hood connection?

[Mentalist]

crazy theory time:
the power behind the jade statues will take over collecting the souls of those who worship no gods. the religious souls will go to their respective gods

Also, whatever happened to Baudin?
EDIT: and Toc the Elder is still alive and sworn his soul to Hood--what's likely to happen to Hood's acolytes as the result of this fundamental shift in the pantheon? will they all die a la Grey Swords?

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 05 October 2008 - 08:57 PM

[Urizen]

I've also wondered about how this work. Will someone like Dunsparrow start serving the Throne of Ice and the Ice Hold? Presuming of course that Hood goes back to the Ice Hold of course and don't stay retired. Are Dunsparrow sworn to Hood(the person) or the Lord of Death (whoever will take the throne of Death)?

[VampireGoat]

There will be a Queen and she'll be called Laseen

Not entirely as improbable as it should be either.

[Lisheo]

The Ice Hold is, Im fairly sure, occupied by Pannion now... He's happily unveiling Omtose Phelack within Burn, which was called by Quick Ben the last true unveiling of Omtose...

[dawnkiller]

If anyone established is going to assume Hood's role, I'm going to guess it'll be Itkovian + someone who knows how to say no (I'm not 100% Seerdomin is truly dead, just, you know . . . diced; see all the souls who fell behind the Wagon and were dragged to red smears, yet are still technically living). The problem with gods of War assuming the responsibility for the unallotted dead is that war takes very few lives when compared to natural causes like old age/disease/starvation/etc.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it continually stated by Ascendants that -- for a very long time, anyway -- Hood was really rather apathetic towards the souls he collected? I'm not saying he might not have started out passing judgement, nor does he not still do so in some very extreme cases (like Beak's mother), but for most of the read I got the sense he'd been burned out on the job for quite some time. Considering Death is the ultimate equal opportunity force, you gotta think it'd be soul-crushing to pass judgement on every single soul that crosses your threshold, especially when confronted with all the associated injustices -- the good dying young, the evil living long, and so on. Hood's obviously not without passion, since he throws himself wholeheartedly against the CG, but it seems that's the only time he's truly allowed to be personally invested. His job description just doesn't cover the contingency of personal feelings. (See how he defied the natural order by sparing the good guardsman in TtH, and how vehemence of the assertion of finally being able to do what was "right.") All in all, by the time we met him it seemed obvious he didn't want to be doing the job anymore -- so it seems that the dead he was supposed to be caring for got the short-shrift accordingly. Certainly nobody in that realm seemed very happy, even those we knew for a fact had lead fairly blameless lives.

Although this also raises an interesting question: if Draconus is back in the world now that the sword has been destroyed, does that mean Hood is, too? If anyone deserves a Tool-esque Life Reboot I gotta think it's Hood.

[Jude]

So how about Itkovian and Karsa? You said we needed someone to say no and the posts further up about Karsa seemed to be saying that Karsa would have one thing to say in judging the dead and that would be "guitlyguiltyguilty" haha.

Also I can remember reading HoC and thinking that, for sure, Karsa's soul collecting was leading up to something to do with HHDeath. I also get the sense that Karsa is shaping up to be one of the top power houses in the malaverse. If he's eventually this unstoppable ascendant with thousands of souls chained to him, does that not make for a good new Lord of Death? Ofcourse the only problem with that is, since he used all his souls to take down Rhulad in RG we haven't really heard anything about whether or not he still has that chain of souls thing. Maybe that's all it was for. But again, he and Itkovian seem to give that perfect balance no?

[Zorland]

And what about Gruntle? In the beginning of the novel he was able to command the souls of the deceased.

[Urizen]

Zorland, on Oct 9 2008, 08:08 AM, said:

And what about Gruntle? In the beginning of the novel he was able to command the souls of the deceased.

I read that as Gruntle not commanding the souls of any old deceased but rather Gruntle, as Trake's go to guy, commands souls sworn to Trake.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I too thought that the whole point of the Itkovian/Redeemer arc was to show us the main contendor for High House Death in the time to come. How immediate will his accession to the realm be? Well, to be honest, I don't think he will inherit Hood's realm at all. It sounds as though he's carving out his own warren, and acquiring increasingly great power--embracing the T'lan Imass, for one, and the Dying God for another. If the Dying God could have become so much more powerful by overtaking Itkovian, it stands to reason that the opposite also holds true.

A couple of circumstantial tidbits to ponder/add to the mix:

1.) Recall how Hood's one act of mercy/justice/judgement (the dying Watchman in Darujhistan) echoes Itkovian's first such act (embracing Salind and the Dying God--at least, that's how Itkovian frames it to himself).

2.) The Redeemer is so very Christ-like (forgiving all who kneel before him, taking up the sorrow/sin of an entire race and redeeming them, etc.). His cult, then, has the makings of a VERY permanent fixture, and its echoes to our own world should not be dismissed. I think we're seeing huge changes in the structure of the Malazan world, and the Redeemer is a large and permanent part of that.


So what happens to Hood and his realm? Well, since he's been released from Dragnipur, I would imagine that he'll return to his realm and get all Jaghut-y and solitary-ish while his realm's power fades and is slowly replaced by others and eventually by the Redeemer. Much like the Holds being replaced by the Warrens, I'd imagine.

[dawnkiller]

I think someone else already brought up the Unaligned Salvation card that Felisin Younger represents now . . . the terminology, at least, makes me wonder if the two movements (Itkovian's and Felisin's) wil collide at some point. Even if the card is theoretically neutral, the movement seems just as problematic as the Redeemer's Get Out of Sins Free card -- I think it was summed up as something like "the many suffer so the one may embody the ultimate bliss they will one day achieve". Compared to the Pannion Domin the thing was positively benign, but by the end there Felisin Younger seemed like she was being cored of personality much like the original Felisin was by Dryjhna and Salind was by the Dying God. I don't know if she needs Redeeming, but it is one of the few organizations in Wu that seems to focus on the afterlife, which even Hood's "religion" didn't really do.

[Sinisdar Toste]

things is now that all the dead are going to be with their gods when they die, the CG better start working on creating a paradise, or all those souls who worship him are not going to be too happy when they show up on his island and its just a tent and smithy...