[Aptorian]

Well, I think a more "average" warning lies in the fact that you shouldn't piss Brood off. We see in MoI that he has quite a temper. It's also told that in his "youth" or some thing like that he created a mountain(range?) or something like that.

Translation being, don't get him angry because if you do he might just wipe you and all your ilk out in a massive combined earthquake and tectonic burst of growth. One minute you'll be throwing spears at him the next - Suddenly, mountainranges! Dozens of them!

[tsr]

Just another idea here. Since Erikson is such an unpredictable author.

Burn.

Reasoning?

1. Quick Ben identified early that Burn was dying/weakening and this was the cause of the disturbance in the Warrens.

2. Quick & Hood had an agreement... somewhere about something we arn't clear on.

3. The Chained God since he's sanctioned now has to play by the book, and his target seemed to be Burn. I don't know where I get that notion, but it seems to me indirectly he was the cause of her pain.

4. IF you can't beat the Chained God, then Kill the one he's after first? Or at least if I were Shadowthrone, thats how I'd think. Again, i don't recall where I get the notion he was after burn.

5. ShadowThrone is behind it all. Supporting Evidence is Apsalars conversation with Crokus(Cutter) about Cutters Notion that Shadowthrone intends to sit on all the Thrones. But what Shadowthrone is really after is to fix the warrens, and to do that, you need to Kill the Weak Link in the Chain, so to speak. Burn.

I submit to you further evidence of our ignorance.

What was the Chained God before he was Chained?

Why, the god of the earth? and Burn his replacement, unequal to the task?

You read it here first, at the Malazan Empire.

[Aptorian]

The CG can't just "become" Wu's earth god. He's alien to this world, his very presence is a poison.

If Burn dies, her warren falls to the CG, his poison takes it and since all warrens are linked to Burn, all other warrens die. This is the end of magic, at least as we understand it, the only thing that will be left will be the crippled gods power.

[Lisheo]

That was what we heard in MoI. But tbh, all the other characters villify the Chained God immensely, and I'm not gonna pull my old argument for him being good out of the warrens lol, but I can't actually see any blatant evil obvious in his actions. Not his, anyway. All the evil is committed by the people who tap his power. So I wonder was perhaps that Burn business linked to the death of magic an exaggeration.

[HoosierDaddy]

Nah, the blatant poisoning of warrens is evil. And he was definitely behind that. The trainwreck that is Rhulad is also his, and Pannion's bullshit as well. The CG is not nice. He might not be insane, but he also isn't nice.

[Lisheo]

Lisheo, on Apr 20 2008, 02:32 PM, said:

The Crippled God is NOT evil. With the Tenescowri, it was Pannion who created them, not the CG. The CG does not order anything, its more like he whispers advice on how to make a person's darkest desires come true. Pannion was betrayed by his family, then tortured by his 'Mother' the insane Matron, and somewhere deep in his heart lay the desire to get revenge on the world, destroy family, destroy everything. He forced the Pannions into what they became, destroying the idea of family by creating the Seerdomin, Children of the Dead Seed etc. The Crippled God merely provided him with advice on how to go about it, advice which corupted the already slightly insane Jaghut. And offered him the use of Chaos, but as seen before, even mortals can access Chaos, so what the CG gave Pannion really wasnt much.

Similarly, what did Rhulad want but to become Emperor? Circumstances and the CG's nudge chose him over Hannan Mosag, but the path he walked was his of his own devising. I hardly think the CG forced him to steal his brother's wife. The only time the CG has actually forced someone to do anything is with Withal. What the CG is, is a God of Desire. He answered prayers of those who had nothing else to turn to, the broken and depraved, and to be fair, its not his fault that their desires are so warped and bitter. The CG is a God, torn from his world, who actually answers the prayers of his believers on his new home. He might be a little insane but thats hardly his fault, it was the Circle of Mages who dragged him down.

Felisin younger was made that way by Bidithal. That is why she is so messed up, and that was Bidithal's own desires there again.

Poliel was trying to save Burn through cleansing her of her disease. I dont see that as evil, I see that as her helping the CG and the world, actually. The CG is unwillingly the cause of Burn's illness, and so Poliel tried to save them both, without the use of Burn's Hammer.

So, my theory, what is the CG? He was the God of Desire of an alien realm. He was dragged to Wu, sent insane by the process. Because he is alien, his presence is poisonous. When he awoke, he found he had a legion of followers, the broken of Wu, but he was powerless, so he reached out and took hold of Chaos, and used it to actually start answering their personal prayers, which is something I suspect most Gods do not do. He is not taking delight in pain, but in a person's joy at accomplishing their goal, no matter how warped. I dont think the CG is evil, just beyond morality really.

Argument, above.

He's not evil. He simply can't resist the prayers of his followers. Rhulad always wanted power, and Mayen, as said above, long before the CG appeared on the scene. He was a time bomb. If anything, the CG did good with Rhulad. Turning him from a creepy stalker into a fairly charismatic ruler.
He STOPPED the Edur becoming insular and dying out.
He tried ti make life in Lether better with them, tried to end indenture. The use of the Nascent, all that, Rhulad's idea. You can tell. It contained youthful ignorance.

Pannion- He wasn't exactly warm and fuzzy with love after he was taken away from Chaos, was he? He either saved Burn, or got torn apart by ten thousand T'lan Imass. No choice.
If it was the CG's fault, why didn't he toss the Matron back when he got her power, eh, and get his sister back then? That was before the CG worked with him.

Bidithal- all his own doing. All of it. I doubt the CG had any influence there.

Felisan Fatter- A cult of salvation to take in the diseased and ruined isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, either that or they would have been shunned and killed. We've seen this before... Flaws don't seem to be tolerated in the Malaz world, except by the CG. See Gethol and Hood in MoI.

It wasn't poisoning, as such. There was a threshold for mages. So far, all we've seen from magic is that, bar Denul, it causes destruction. The Letherii Empty Hold rituals. Raest's Omtose in GotM. The Beast Ritual. The creation of the Trol'barahl.
Would a Wu without magic REALLY be such an evil thing? Remember, healers also seemed to possess more of a threshold than other mages. High Denul didn't seem to be affected, and Mallet could heal an amount... He was just pushed too hard, too much.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Unless the CG's coming was a convergence gone wrong (unlikely) then I can't see him acting in Burn's capacity.

However, for some more on that subject, I remember Poliel said she sought to heal Burn with fever.

[Seguleh 1st]

Quote

So far, all we've seen from magic is that, bar Denul, it causes destruction.

Even denul does that. it destroys the body it is channelled through if used extensive. did that to kardanas for example.

Seg1st, rereading MoI

This post has been edited by Grief: 13 February 2009 - 08:24 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Karnadas died because of the CG poisoning of the warrens not because he used too much Denul.He was a High Denul user after all

[Seguleh 1st]

i don't have the quote at hand but i know its there. someone remarks that denul destroys the body it flows through, and in a choice of words that made it plain to me that its denul and not the poison. and btw, would not the poison have made him just mad, cause it seems to assail the mind? i'll go searching.

Seg1st, admittedly not a quote-fu master

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I thought it was Chaos that destroyed the body, as it is anathema to order and the body runs on that. Thoughts of the K'risnan Ventrala in RG, for those who're interested.

But warrens can damage a body if too much power is channelled.

[Urizen]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Feb 14 2009, 09:49 AM, said:

I thought it was Chaos that destroyed the body, as it is anathema to order and the body runs on that. Thoughts of the K'risnan Ventrala in RG, for those who're interested.

But warrens can damage a body if too much power is channelled.

I agree, It's Chaos that "intentionally" destroys the body. As long as you don't overexcert yourself using the "regular" Warrens your body will be fine. It's when you try to do too much your body start to fail.

[Xardean]

Is the CG still after Burn? i know he was at the beginning of MoI, but that was before he was sanctioned... so, whats up with that?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I'd say he is...Burn is still being poisoned, just slower is all. But of course, he requires many other schemes.

[Aptorian]

Xardean, on Feb 14 2009, 06:02 PM, said:

Is the CG still after Burn? i know he was at the beginning of MoI, but that was before he was sanctioned... so, whats up with that?

He's never actually been after Burn in a direct sense, the weakening of burn and the corruption of the warrens isn't actually the CGs fault. The other gods chained him to Burn, he can't help himself.

[Xardean]

Hmm thats weird, i for some reason i had the assumption that after he was sanctioned that he couldn't poison the warrens anymore with Chaos...

[Aptorian]

I don't think it's been properly explained why the poison disappeared from the warrens. Burn is still being poisoned but why the warrens are now safe again is a good question. Either the CG stopped it himself so that his House of Chains could live, or it's an effect of the Ice Hold being inside Burn that is actually doing such a good job that it removed the poison.

Personally I thought it was crap because it sort of ruins the build up of tention that you'd expect towards the end of the series. There's no real threat with the last two books coming up.

[HoosierDaddy]

Wasn't the warren poisoning done by Pannion with the CG's power, and not the CG himself? That's why there was an area affect after-all.

[Aptorian]

Hmm. Maybe? It's a possibility. It's been discussed often since MoI was released but I don't think it's ever been settled.

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, Pannion did all sorts of weird stuff with the power the CG granted him. He made those vulture creatures that were fairly impressive (understatement), as well as manipulate a Matron (and it's undead kin). It seems to me that Pannion had some serious power behind his hijinks, enough to poison warrens other than his own (how many Jaghut were running around?) Frankly, his sorcery and creative use of it is beyond everything else we've seen in this series on its scale (Quick's scale isn't quite as epic yet).

We know that DG was concurrent (roughly) with MoI, and yet there were no adverse affects to sorcery in 7 Cities. It just seems like way to large a coincidence for Pannion not to have been the fulcrum in the events, as opposed to the Crippled God.


Edit: I obviously need to quit drinking, as I have no recollection of the post above about the CG and then posted this response disagreeing with my drunken self.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 16 February 2009 - 08:43 AM