[Shanks]

***SPOILERS****

I'm trying to make sense of what just happened (just finished TtH, brain still hiccuping 'awesome'), and what exactly Rake's plan was to get his mum back.

A sequence of events as i see it (not advisable in SE's world, but hey):
- disconnected elemental warrens exist, amongst which Darkness, ruled by Mum Dark, all is well. There are about 10 andii factions warring a bit, amongst which Rist's, Rake's and Ruin's.

- Dark connects/has sex with Light, edur are created (liosan were always there in the unreachable realm of Light), andii see it as betrayal, Rake tells off his mum, mutual turning away occurs.

- Andii are not happy with Dark's turning away, which amongst others causes their souls to be lost after dying. Something has to be Done to make things right again.

- Uniting of andii, exodus to normal world. Rake there encounters Draconus, who seems to have locked up one of the few true gates (the one true gate?) into Dark in his sword. Rake slays Draconus *partly because he already has a plan to get Dark's attention back*.

- 100k-300k years pass. (!)

- Rake gets himself slain to enter Dragnipur, uses the gate to phone home. Mum likes his sacrifice/is empowered by his sacrifice (she seemed to have tried to contact people before through one of Nimander's sisters.) All is well.

Now, it's the passing years that don't make sense to me. Why couldn't Rake just jump on Dragnipur or give it to say Korlat/Andarist to chop him up (getting himself killed by Dassem was just suicide too, as confirmed by Dassem and Karsa). Hood in no way seemed to be required for the thing, he just bought time but also weakened Rake by making Dragnipur heavier to bear. The god-tattoo-baby also only seemed to be a bonus in that regard.

I'm a bit confused.

[prq]

"Something has to be Done to make things right again." this is the point I kinda disagree with, I don't think Rake intended to meet Mother Dark again. He did what he did just to stop chaos from reaching the Gate - and was thus "rewarded" by Mother Darkness with her forgiveness.

My reasoning for Rake being killed by Traveller is that it was Hood's part of the deal: "you get my armies but Traveller is the one who kills you". First, Hood assured that the sword would be available to an honorable man (Traveller), even though he didn't take it. Then, Traveller's guilt for killing Rake seemed to be enough for triggering some guilt inside him and maybe - just maybe - forget the vengeance on Hood.

Just my 2c

PS: The part of the book with the "tattoo young god" I didn't really understand, so I can't really comment

[Aptorian]

Lets face it, the whole plot doesn't make much sense and as such I try not to focus too much on the details.

There's one excuse for Rake waiting for Chaos to almost catch up and that is that they wanted the chained souls to be reduced if not completely destroyed, so that when the sword broke there wouldn't be a host of bad things set lose upon the world.

Why was Hood involved? The best explanation is that Hood, apparently, wanted to resign his position and he did this by chosing to be dragnipured. Rake on the other hand got the ensurance that Hoods forces where there to make sure the gate survived long enough for Rake to do his ritual thingy inside the sword.

Why was Traveller involved? The best explanation is that during the convergence Rake and Hood planned on Traveller protecting the sword, long enough for Rake to do what he needed, and to make sure that no one else got it. Theoretically, even though the gate was gone, people could still be chained inside Dragnipur. Neither Rake or Draconus liked this idea any longer. I believe the fashioning was described as a mistake. As it turned out the idea backfired and Traveller broke... again? and wasn't of much use during the end of the convergence.

Using Traveller doesn't actually make that much sense because it could had backfired. Traveller could had stabbed himself with the sword, just to get to Hood and then Hood would have had no where to run.

You also have to wonder why Brood wasn't just there from the start? What, did his horsecarriage get a flat on the way?

Generally you have to wonder why Rake didn't just invite Hood and Brood to meet him in his basement in Black Coral, but we best not think to much on that subject.

[frookenhauer]

Aptorian;374293 said:

Using Traveller doesn't actually make that much sense because it could had backfired. Traveller could had stabbed himself with the sword, just to get to Hood and then Hood would have had no where to run.

But Traveller would have helped to deal with Chaos before going at it with with Hood, because he's just so gosh darned honourable.

One thing that needs clearing up for me, why is he after hood again?

[prq]

frookenhauer;374350 said:

One thing that needs clearing up for me, why is he after hood again?

Wasn't Dassem's daughter used in the chaining of the Crippled God?

[frookenhauer]

prq;374388 said:

Wasn't Dassem's daughter used in the chaining of the Crippled God?

Used? how? I seem to remember something, but...

[Aptorian]

Apt, slightly drunk, is groaning.

All our knowledge about this happened "behind the curtains", a long time before the main events.

At the last chaining where, among other Dancer attended, Hoods daughter was used. I don't rememeber the details, I do believe that Dassem refused to partake in some... stuff... and it seems that Dassems daughter, who remains unnamed, took his place.

Dassems daughter know lies in an Azath, cut up but caught some place between life and Hood. She got the raw deal of events of the re-chaining of the CG... Was this by her own choice? Does Dassem have a right to be pissed? Who knows.

Anyway, this was not something Dassem was pleased with. He was furious. Dassem renounced the Knight of Hood position and swore vengeance on Hood. Ever since the flashback of Night of Knives, he's been on the hunt of Hood. Why traveller didn't go straight to the source and why it's taken him ten years or so to even get close to his revenge is anyones guess.

[Shanks]

Back on topic: I definitely did get the idea that part of Rake's plan was to get back in contact with Dark, that he's not out to just destroy dragnipur.

Also, to annihilate all those souls in Hood's army just so some of the dangerous chained ones get annihilated seems a bit of an unfair deal. Rake just destroying the thing with Brood and some other friends and weathering/dying to the escapees seems a 'fairer' idea.

Ah well, guess I'll do what Aptorian suggested and ignore the overall plot (and enjoy the pretty fights?).

[zwitterion]

Shanks;374278 said:

- Dark connects/has sex with Light, edur are created (liosan were always there in the unreachable realm of Light), andii see it as betrayal, Rake tells off his mum, mutual turning away occurs.

Is it ever said that this was the betrayal? At what point did the dragons show up because it's mentioned that starvald demelain opening into galain was a messy affair - i don't know at what point, or how it was associated with the strife there.

Shanks;374278 said:

- Uniting of andii, exodus to normal world. Rake there encounters Draconus, who seems to have locked up one of the few true gates (the one true gate?) into Dark in his sword. Rake slays Draconus *partly because he already has a plan to get Dark's attention back*.

Why does darkness need a gate while the other warrens apparently don't. Didn't Clip wander around in galain at some point? Why didn't he need a gate? They mention that the wagon in drag was made of blackwood from karakhanas, so was it that draconus somehow bound up access to galain by using the blackwood? (if so, see the clip point).

Shanks;374278 said:

- 100k-300k years pass. (!)

this adds suspense.

Shanks;374278 said:

- Rake gets himself slain to enter Dragnipur, uses the gate to phone home. Mum likes his sacrifice/is empowered by his sacrifice (she seemed to have tried to contact people before through one of Nimander's sisters.) All is well.

She was already hanging out in aranatha, see episode in the village of the kelyk addicts. Anyone's guess as to why her and not someone in Black Coral. Anyway, there's lots of talk by the high priestess as to how "necessary" mum dark's turning away was from rake's perspective, and how his betrayal was necessary, and it was all very complex and fated but intentional. I don't think we're sposed to know why yet, but I don't think her "liking his sacrifice" is part of it. Seems more he had to empower.. the.. gate?

Shanks;374278 said:

Hood in no way seemed to be required for the thing, he just bought time but also weakened Rake by making Dragnipur heavier to bear.

This really bugged me. Hood and his OMG INCONCEIVABLY HUGE dead army showed up and basically just bit it for half an hour until rake showed up with his roving high pressure system. If they'd scheduled the whole thing a half hour (or 300 thousand years) earlier, the could have done it all without killing all those dead dudes again. The only way it makes sense would be if all those dead somehow needed to be smashed into all that chaos. Maybe to free up Hood a bit somehow (it didn't seem like the zombies had any effect on the chaos really).

[Abyss]

For what it's worth, here's how i see it...

Back in the days of the Tiste invasion, the Kchain Matrons panic and do their death spell ritual. Somehow or other, this causes chaos to directly pursue the gate to Kurald Galain, which in some way is bad for the universe in a holy shit we're all dead sort of way.

Draconus realizes this and makes Dragnipur, which moves the gate away from chaos, and is powered by the souls of those it kills.

Rake, not trusting Drac with something that important to the Andii, offs Drac and takes the sword.

Funny thing about the sword, but the weilder can't just throw themselves on it - which makes sense. It also inspires a protective reflex - see Apsalara's recall of Rake killing her almost inadvertently.

For a long time, he kills various peoples and things that end up powering the sword, via the whole wagon and chains thing Draconus started.

Somewhere along the way he gets tired of the whole mess. The sword is heavy and powerful and really just a pain in the ass to carry around and he resents having to kill for it, because deep down he's realy just a big softie.

So he comes up with a plan. And he speaks with Hood, who is looking for an out, and Hood starts mobilizing the armies of the dead.

And he speaks with St and Cot, and they start events that will move Traveller, probably the only guy who can beat Rake and surpass the sword's protective elements, into place.

And the plan requires that the gate be moved again, this time somewhere it can be guarded. So when the Andii seize Black Coral, he has the new site.

To move the gate, the wagon has to stop moving. And chaos will jump right in there if it does, so chaos has to be delayed long enough for Rake to enter the sword and work his mojo.

And if he just breaks the sword, a whole lot of bad things get released and the wagon/gate would just sit around. But those bad things aren't strong enuf to resists chaos by themselves.

So he needs Hood to enter the sword and bring in his armies (he's the only one powerful enuf to open a path from Death into the sword's warren), who will then be able to protect the wagon long enuf.

Draconus and Karakablabla's tattoo plan was Drac's own last ditch effort to summon enuf power to stop chaos. It had nothing to do directly with Rake's plan. We could speculate that Rake expected Drac to try SOMEthing, but that might be reaching.

Karakawahaha however, had other plans. He figures Rake has to show up to save Mommy D, so he alters the tattoo ritual into the child-god thing.

Rake offs Hood. Hood enters the sword and brings in his armies. The wagon stops moving. Chaos attacks and various chained and dead peeps proceed to die a lot. Again.

Rake and Trassemblae fight. Rake manipulates the fight to bypass the protective elements in Dragnipur and ensure that Trav kills him with Dragnipur.

Rake enters the sword and brings all his considerable power to bare on moving the gate to from the sword to Black Coral.

Drac's tattoo ritual activates and Karawhatzizname's child-god is activated. Ditch overrides Kakahead's programming and the child-god kills its maker and then gives its power to Rake.

Rake gets the additional power boost and uses it and all his own power to move the gate to Black Coral, handily zapping the Dying God who was in the throne room at the time, being delayed by Endest.

The Gate is moved, Mommy D can act, the Andii are saved from the Dying God and everyone lives happily ever after the end.


- Abyss, can also explain how they get the caramel into the Caramilk if you like...

[zwitterion]

This is pretty rad but it still doesn't explain why there's a gate to kurald galain in the first place. Hm unless somehow they bound up all access to KG in that gate to keep out the chaos.

Abyss;375151 said:

Somewhere along the way he gets tired of the whole mess. The sword is heavy and powerful and really just a pain in the ass to carry around and he resents having to kill for it, because deep down he's realy just a big softie.

Also, I have a feeling the wielder is another one of the wagon haulers. Check this out:

"The Son of Darkness reached up and unsheathed Dragnipur.
Steam curled from the black blade, twisting into ephemeral chains that stretched out to drag behind him ... Reining in that bleed of power had been an act of mercy, to all those who might ... comprehend its significance ... He walked on as those chains grew taut.
No need yet to lean forward with each step. No need yet to reveal a single detail to betray the strength and the will demanded of him."-TtH 805-806

It's like he has to haul the wagon with ever step, or perhaps the warren itself.

Abyss;375151 said:

So he comes up with a plan. And he speaks with Hood, who is looking for an out, and Hood starts mobilizing the armies of the dead.
...
And if he just breaks the sword, a whole lot of bad things get released and the wagon/gate would just sit around. But those bad things aren't strong enuf to resists chaos by themselves.

So he needs Hood to enter the sword and bring in his armies (he's the only one powerful enuf to open a path from Death into the sword's warren), who will then be able to protect the wagon long enuf.

I buy this but it's unclear how it helps Hood.

Abyss;375151 said:

Draconus and Karakablabla's tattoo plan was Drac's own last ditch effort to summon...

Heh heh heh

Abyss;375151 said:

enuf power to stop chaos. It had nothing to do directly with Rake's plan. We could speculate that Rake expected Drac to try SOMEthing, but that might be reaching.

Drac's tattoo ritual activates and Karawhatzizname's child-god is activated. Ditch overrides Kakahead's programming and the child-god kills its maker and then gives its power to Rake.

I got the impression the tattoo was integral to the reforming of the gate somewhere else, because of all the gothy latticework that started floating around in black coral. I don't think it's ever said that Ditch reappropriated childgod for rake's use. He just thwarted karakasdfsd's attempt to slip in a little stabbin' into the existing tattoo plan.

[Masonity]

Why not just do it in some basement?

Hood needed to be brought into the world. That guy with no hands and his wife summoned him. Without that he couldn't truely be there.

Think Rake would have allowed him to do that shit in his city, on his watch? Plan or no plan...

[Dragnipurake]

zwitterion;375210 said:

This is pretty rad but it still doesn't explain why there's a gate to kurald galain in the first place. Hm unless somehow they bound up all access to KG in that gate to keep out the chaos.......

Every warren has a gate, so we are told

Abyss, that was very interesting and may be SE would use it in the next book as an explanation to those who are craving for one thanks for the engrossing 5min read!

[fan_83]

there needs to be some sort of element of ritual in such a huge undertaking, this therefore can;t be done in a basement somewhere.. cos rake would not have enough space to fight traveller properly.. and some kind of ritual is probably needed to summon death directly to the mortal plane...
after all scarifices have to be made.. and some citizens of pale volunteered

another reason...
rake and co was pissed off at mommy d until they got tired of it around 100k years ago and therefore rake start putting together a plan...

[Sinisdar Toste]

Abyss;375151 said:

For what it's worth, here's how i see it...

Back in the days of the Tiste invasion, the Kchain Matrons panic and do their death spell ritual. Somehow or other, this causes chaos to directly pursue the gate to Kurald Galain, which in some way is bad for the universe in a holy shit we're all dead sort of way.

Draconus realizes this and mistakenly makes Dragnipur, not realizing darks migration is its own defense, which pulls the gate away from chaos, and is powered by the souls of those it kills.

Rake, not trusting Drac with something that important to the Andii, offs Drac and takes the sword.

Funny thing about the sword, but the weilder can't just throw themselves on it - which makes sense. It also inspires a protective reflex - see Apsalara's recall of Rake killing her almost inadvertently.

For a long time, he kills various peoples and things that end up powering the sword, via the whole wagon and chains thing Draconus started.

Somewhere along the way he gets tired of the whole mess. The sword is heavy and powerful and really just a pain in the ass to carry around and he resents having to kill for it, because deep down he's realy just a big softie.

So he comes up with a plan. And he speaks with Hood, who is looking for an out, and Hood starts mobilizing the armies of the dead.

And he speaks with St and Cot, and they start events that will move Traveller, probably the only guy who can beat Rake and surpass the sword's protective elements, into place.

And the plan requires that the gate be moved again, this time somewhere it can be guarded. So when the Andii seize Black Coral, he has the new site.

To move the gate, the wagon has to stop moving. And chaos will jump right in there if it does, so chaos has to be delayed long enough for Rake to enter the sword and work his mojo.

And if he just breaks the sword, a whole lot of bad things get released and the wagon/gate would just sit around. But those bad things aren't strong enuf to resists chaos by themselves.

So he needs Hood to enter the sword and bring in his armies (he's the only one powerful enuf to open a path from Death into the sword's warren), who will then be able to protect the wagon long enuf.

Draconus and Karakablabla's tattoo plan was Drac's own last ditch effort to summon enuf power to stop chaos. It had nothing to do directly with Rake's plan. We could speculate that Rake expected Drac to try SOMEthing, but that might be reaching.

Karakawahaha however, had other plans. He figures Rake has to show up to save Mommy D, so he alters the tattoo ritual into the child-god thing.

Rake offs Hood. Hood enters the sword and brings in his armies. The wagon stops moving. Chaos attacks and various chained and dead peeps proceed to die a lot. Again.

Rake and Trassemblae fight. Rake manipulates the fight to bypass the protective elements in Dragnipur and ensure that Trav kills him with Dragnipur.

Rake enters the sword and brings all his considerable power to bare on moving the gate to from the sword to Black Coral.

Drac's tattoo ritual activates and Karawhatzizname's child-god is activated. Ditch overrides Kakahead's programming and the child-god kills its maker and then gives its power to Rake.

Rake gets the additional power boost and uses it and all his own power to move the gate to Black Coral, handily zapping the Dying God who was in the throne room at the time, being delayed by Endest.

The Gate is moved, Mommy D can act, the Andii are saved from the Dying God and everyone lives happily ever after the end.


- Abyss, can also explain how they get the caramel into the Caramilk if you like...

isnt that what you just did?

and i like how you tied in the k'chain death spell, whether its true or not.
see? when you explain it all step by step like that it makes complete rational sense, thank god someone finally did it

[Shanks]

as the others said, nice explanation Abyss (I'd forgotten about the KCCM death spell). However, it all kind of hangs on two big assumptions:
- Draco set out to save MD when he forged Dragnipur (it doesn't matter if it was before or after Kallor's curse). He was a right bastard in ye olden days, so this seems unlikely. Maybe if he just wanted to make a kickass sword and sacrificed most of Galain for it because he was an evil bastard, that would work (he did kind of want Rake's forgiveness at the end).
- Dragnipur somehow controls its wielder into not killing himself and being more offensive (A'ps'a'lar'a is no confirmation for this, since she attacked Rake so he had to defend himself). This whole shielding (boost aft shield Mr. LaForge?)/character-changing (Frodo's ring in a new shape?) seems pure speculation.

Then again, I'm a scientist, so I'll happily take them as the theory of the moment until someone comes along with a better idea .

Zwitter: it's a bit unclear who is allowed to still enter Dark. At some point they say Clip is the only one since he's MD's herald. Then again, all those armies that came to the normal world must have come out of something, but that might again only point to there being one gate *in*. I got the idea that as long as 'the' gate to a realm is open, any sufficiently knowledgeable mage can get in from any place. If the main gate is locked off, they can't (demelain, galain).

[fafner]

personally i am wondering how much of the death curse is true. as we know a lot of the things that is told by persons is second or third hand and over millennia.
The only things that we know what happens is what we read as a flashback or direct seen

[Cougar]

As SE himself said the reason it doesn't happen in a basement is cos it would have been shit.

[prq]

One thing to start... it crossed my mind that maybe Rake killed Draconus because Envy convinced him to do it. Envy is... well... envious and she is Rake's lover so she wanted the sword for herself. She convinces Rake to take it, but then Rake won't relinquish the sword. Then her envy returns and she leaves/betrays Rake.

zwitterion;375099 said:

She was already hanging out in aranatha, see episode in the village of the kelyk addicts. Anyone's guess as to why her and not someone in Black Coral.

A few reasons I can think of:

1) Aranatha was a "simpleton" (Chaur-like)

2) She needed someone to guide and protect Nimander, Rake's successor, so being in Black Coral wouldn't cut it

3) If she had come in Black Coral, Rake would surely notice her

4) Maybe she had a reason to be a part of the earlier story with Andarist, the Throne of Shadow, Traveller, etc.

Abyss;375151 said:

Rake and Trassemblae fight.

Do you mean Dassem Ultor?

[Abyss]

[quote=zwitterion;375210]This is pretty rad but it still doesn't explain why there's a gate to kurald galain in the first place. ... [/quote]

Per some'one's comment below, all warrens have a gate. Or otherwise, the 'gate' under the wagon is just a figurative embodiment of the point where KD/MD becomes vulnerable to chaos. Look at it this way, if it didn't exist before the Matrons' death spell, then it did because of the matrons' death spell.

[quote] Also, I have a feeling the wielder is another one of the wagon haulers. ...It's like he has to haul the wagon with ever step, or perhaps the warren itself.[/quote]

Possible. I took that as a reflection of the weight of the sword as opposed to the gate, but your interp makes sense too. In your version way, the souls become the chains linking to the weilder who then 'moves the gate'. [/quote]

[quote] I buy this but it's unclear how it helps Hood. [/quote]

Hood wanted out of the King of Death gig, and likely wanted to prevent the end of the universe too.

[quote] Last Ditch.... Heh heh heh [/quote]

I'm so glad someone caught that....:cool:

[quote] I got the impression the tattoo was integral to the reforming of the gate somewhere else, because of all the gothy latticework that started floating around in black coral. I don't think it's ever said that Ditch reappropriated childgod for rake's use. He just thwarted karakasdfsd's attempt to slip in a little stabbin' into the existing tattoo plan.[/quote]

There was a pattern in Black Coral and there was a different pattern in the tattoo. Rake took the tattoo and reshaped it to what he needed.


[quote=Masonity;375215]Why not just do it in some basement?

Hood needed to be brought into the world. That guy with no hands and his wife summoned him. Without that he couldn't truely be there.

Think Rake would have allowed him to do that shit in his city, on his watch? Plan or no plan...[/quote]

Darujhistan wasn't Rake's city. But Hood did need to be properly summoned physically or the plan would not have worked, ie: Hood would not have been in a position to bring the full weight of his power into Dragnipur and open the way to Death's armies.

[quote=Dragnipurake;375217]Every warren has a gate, so we are told

Abyss, that was very interesting and may be SE would use it in the next book as an explanation to those who are craving for one thanks for the engrossing 5min read![/quote]

Exactly. And you're welcome

[quote=fan_83;375227]there needs to be some sort of element of ritual in such a huge undertaking, ...
after all scarifices have to be made.. and some citizens of pale volunteered

another reason...
rake and co was pissed off at mommy d until they got tired of it around 100k years ago and therefore rake start putting together a plan...[/quote]

Agreed on both counts. Rake's sacrifice gave the ritual sufficient power to move the gate. Since the gate is like the root of the universe or something, it wasn't like he could just toss it in a rented uhaul and drive to Coral.

[quote=Sinisdar Toste;375249]...
and i like how you tied in the k'chain death spell, whether its true or not.
see? when you explain it all step by step like that it makes complete rational sense, thank god someone finally did it[/quote]

One does one's humble best.

If i recall correctly, Scabby was blamed for the Matrons' death spell back in MT, which was what led to Mael and Kila skullpunching him. (not his betrayal of Silch, tho it may have seemed that way)

[quote=Shanks;375274]as the others said, nice explanation Abyss (I'd forgotten about the KCCM death spell). However, it all kind of hangs on two big assumptions:
- Draco set out to save MD when he forged Dragnipur (it doesn't matter if it was before or after Kallor's curse). He was a right bastard in ye olden days, so this seems unlikely. Maybe if he just wanted to make a kickass sword and sacrificed most of Galain for it because he was an evil bastard, that would work (he did kind of want Rake's forgiveness at the end). [/quote]

Nice guy or outright bastard, the end of the universe ends Draconus too, so he had ample reason to do this.

[quote] - Dragnipur somehow controls its wielder into not killing himself and being more offensive (A'ps'a'lar'a is no confirmation for this, since she attacked Rake so he had to defend himself). This whole shielding (boost aft shield Mr. LaForge?)/character-changing (Frodo's ring in a new shape?) seems pure speculation. [/quote]


Reread the Apsalara recall - She notes that Rake was more curious about her than anything and he only struck when she tried to stab him in the back, and even then he looked unhappy about it.

I figure that Rake, who could challenge the Mage Cadre in GotM while standing on a balcony taking the sun, could disarm one Imass without killing her, but for a kill reflex.

Kallor, confronting Spin, went on and on about how once the fight started he would have no choice but to kill Spin, and wouldn't be able to stop himself. I take the Dragnipur situation as similar - an element of the aspect forces the weilder to strike and kill.

Plus there has to be logical reason that Rake couldn't just throw himself on the sword after offing Hood, aside from the fact that would have been boring and not nearly as cool as what did happen.


- Abyss, ...so about this caramilk thing...