[flea]

@Abyss: quite simply the best set of speculations and explanations I have seen in my time here. Especially good with Rake's "suicide."

[Shanks]

Abyss;375414 said:

Reread the Apsalara recall - She notes that Rake was more curious about her than anything and he only struck when she tried to stab him in the back, and even then he looked unhappy about it.

I figure that Rake, who could challenge the Mage Cadre in GotM while standing on a balcony taking the sun, could disarm one Imass without killing her, but for a kill reflex.

Kallor, confronting Spin, went on and on about how once the fight started he would have no choice but to kill Spin, and wouldn't be able to stop himself. I take the Dragnipur situation as similar - an element of the aspect forces the weilder to strike and kill.

Plus there has to be logical reason that Rake couldn't just throw himself on the sword after offing Hood, aside from the fact that would have been boring and not nearly as cool as what did happen.


- Abyss, ...so about this caramilk thing...

I thought Aps already was an ascendant by then, so by no means powerless, even if she didn't come near Rake's power. If he had to defend himself in a reflex cos she tried to backstab, using the sword might have been the only option.

An element of which aspect do you mean? Kallor doesn't have any special sword, but just goes into this berzerker fury once he starts, or has his principles to kill or some such. But the not having a sword mainly ends the killing analogy for me.

Maybe dragnipur just needs to be used with all of the willpower/conviction/mind-energy-mumbojumbo of the 'user' or something like that (at least i hope so, dragnipur turning out to be like the precioussss would be sad). But I agree, there must be a reason why rake needs the fight with dassem. Then again, this kind of contradicts the casual offing of Aps.

[Skywalker]

Thanks 'byss for the explanation...

I can buy into the whole "Dragnipurr makes you a mean killer cat" bit... but not the self-defense reflex. There is no quote to support the self-defense bit

[Abyss]

Good point that she was already ascendant, but the way she described the encounter with Rake didn't really suggest she awed him with her mad powers. That said, if that means her backstab attempt was actually a real threat, then that justifies the Dragnipur reaction.

Another possibility is that the nature of the sacrifice to power everything that followed required something more than just Rake nicking his own finger with Dragnipur or throwing himself on it. He needed die, in a violent, spectacular way at the hands of a god, whom he manipulated into unwillingly killing him, because THAT makes a statement which in turn makes the ritual of moving the gate that much more powerful.

As for Kallor, see the thread re him where i speculate he is aspected to ruthless ambition

- Abyss, occasionally sacrifices a frenchfry to appease the grease gods...

[frookenhauer]

Abyss is the cat! Sorry no brainzzzz. Rep do ya?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Shanks;375274 said:

- Draco set out to save MD when he forged Dragnipur (it doesn't matter if it was before or after Kallor's curse). He was a right bastard in ye olden days, so this seems unlikely. Maybe if he just wanted to make a kickass sword and sacrificed most of Galain for it because he was an evil bastard, that would work (he did kind of want Rake's forgiveness at the end)

it wasnt just MD he was trying to save, it was the universe he lived in
also rotcg prologue

Spoiler

draconus is mentioned as consort of dark and suzerain of night, gives him reasonable cause i think to take the protection of MD into his own hands

[Abyss]

Indeed. It was said in MT, by Fear or Binidas iirc, that the Matrons' death ritual thingy meant the end of the universe. Have to figure even a complete dick of an elder god isn't going to be happy about that.

What is interesting is that in spite of essentially a common purpose, Rake and Drac still came into conflict. No doubt Envy had something to do with that.

Another point that bothers me is if, as Drac says to Paran in MoI, the gate's natural state is a wandering, then fixing it in place in Black Coral removes the immediate threat of chaos pursuing it, but doesn't fix the bigger problem of it being fixed in place.

It seems Chaos isn't going to just role on into the world and eat Black Coral, but even so, it seems it's still vulnerable, albeit less so.

Fun aside - all those citiies and states that were looking for a joint protection deal with Black Coral probably don't realize just what they will be getting into now.

- Abyss, ..."...wait, you want us to help you stop what?"...

[prq]

Abyss;376121 said:

What is interesting is that in spite of essentially a common purpose, Rake and Drac still came into conflict. No doubt Envy had something to do with that.

As I mentioned above I'm pretty convinced Envy wanted the sword itself.

[Lisheo]

In all honesty, who didn't want the sword at that point? Bar Traveller... Even Pust gave it a try!

[Blend]

Lisheo, on Sep 24 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

In all honesty, who didn't want the sword at that point? Bar Traveller... Even Pust gave it a try!

Kruppe, Karsa, Crokus, the Seguleh 2nd come to mind...

[alt146]

This was discussed a couple of times pre-forumpocalypse, as well as in purgatory. One quote that struck me in the reading was when Rake says that all the threats have to be countered at once, or something similar. So to add to abyss's pretty detailed explanation, I have one or two things I think might be relevant. One, after rake's death, the Andii would be leaderless. Nimander only really grew the balls to be a decent leader during TtH (I felt), so Rake dying sooner might have left his entire people floundering. The Dying God, Kallor and a couple of people we probably didnt see all had to be dealt with near simultaneously. Chaos had to be stalled and the dead within Dragnipur dealt with. All in all a lot to deal with in one action, I can see why he needed help from Hood, Baruk, ST etc, which also explains a little why it all took place in Dstan. I think that Brood might not have let Rake kill himself if he had actually been there, which is why he came later (they are friends after all).

As to why it was Traveller - I have a crazy theory. All through the book, Dassem was delayed and set on a specific course by various gods (ST, Mael etc), each to their own end. Having Traveller journey to Dstan and spend a certain amount of time fighting Rake might still be part of some bigger plan, with dassem arriving somewhere at a crucial time (like an hour earlier/later everything would have turned out different) simply because he fought with Rake...

[SiriusL]

Just had a whole post written, but hadn't logged in yet so I lost it. Damn.

Anyway, the one point I wanted to make was that Draconus created Dragnipur to bind the Gate to KG and use it as bait for chaos. He implies that all the other realms wouldn't have existed, or would be in trouble, now that the Gate is gone. Why is this? I have no idea. Apparently Chaos likes to chase KG first, or something?

I definitely agree that the whole thing has been planned for some time, to the letter, so to speak. I don't quite get why Draconus didn't know about it, but Krakatoabla did. Maybe 'cause he's Andii?

[BelegCuthalion]

Does anyone have any sound speculation on what the conversation betwteen Trav and Cot was about?

My suspicion is that Cot. asked Trav. to kill Rake ...

[SiriusL]

BelegCuthalion, on Oct 4 2008, 02:57 PM, said:

Does anyone have any sound speculation on what the conversation betwteen Trav and Cot was about?

My suspicion is that Cot. asked Trav. to kill Rake ...

I thought Trav told Rake, "He said you would stand in my way," with (h)e meaning Cotillion.

I'm not sure he asked Traveller, I thik maybe he just said, "Look, Rake's waiting for you and you have to kill him if you ever want to get to Hood." Rake had to die for the sword to be broken, which was one of the goals all along.

[Lisheo]

Cotillion told Dassem that Hood had just been killed by Rake.

[Osric]

Thanks for the explenation and theories abyss and everybody else, very good indeed, helped me grasp it all much better.