[HoosierDaddy]

The Warrens: A Foundation for Magic and Their Mechanics

Introduction: The driving force behind this thread/post were two quotes in TTH. K'rul's statement that he is the prize in the war amongst the pantheon, and Gothos' quote that it did not matter whether the dragons' blood in the Elder's area was from a live or dead dragon.This post/thread will be seperated into 3 parts:

1. What are the warrens? This section will discuss the foundation of the warrens, and their role in Wu.

2. How do the warrens function as a system? This section will discuss how the warrens function as a system of magic for Wu as a whole and how they tie together.

3. How does a warren work individually. This section will mostly be based upon another persons post, and will discuss the mechanics of a sorcerous unveiling of an individual warren.

I: What are the warrens?

We know that the warrens are the main system of magic for Wu. In fact, Pedantic War Bear's adamant statement that Semar Dev is in fact a user of Burn could mean that all magic in Wu is through the system of warrens.

A. K'rul: The architect of the system.

GotM 443: K'rul & Raest

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'I was once a God,' the figure replied. 'Worshipped as K'rul, and my aspect was the Obelisk. I am the Maker of the Paths - do you find significance in that ancient title?

MoI 214-215: Lady Envy & K'rul

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'Are you my master, K'rul? Since when -'

Visions flooded her mind, staggering her. Darkness. Then chaos, wild unfocused power, a universe devoid of sense, of control, of meaning. Entities flung through the maelstrom. Lost, terrified by the birth of light. A sudden sharpening - pain as of wrists opened, the heat spilling forth - a savage imposition of order, the haert from which blood flowed in even, steady streams.... And the blood - the power - now sweeping in currents through veins, through arteries, branching out through all existence.... Those veins, those arteries, they are the warrens.

....You are a sorceress. By Light's Wild Mane, your power feeds on the very blood of my eternal soul...

So, we have the foundation for the magical system. The Elder God, K'rul, fashioned order out of chaos in Wu by making of himself a system of magic. That system is the system of warrens, and is comprised of two parts, K'rul's flesh and K'rul's blood.

B. The flesh:

MOI: 215, Lady Envy

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'Who knows the...truth K'rul?' That, in striding through the warrens, we travel through your flesh?

MOI: 27 & 90

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K'rul spoke within the minds of his kin. It must be done. I will fashiona...a place for this. Within myself.
A warren to hold all of his? Draconus asked in horror....

'Do not hint at injustices High King! I possess enough of Nighchill's memories to recall the Imperial Warren - the place that you once ruled, Kallor, before the Malazans made claim to it.

So, whenever we see someone, or say even 11 Skykeeps floating through a warren, they are moving bodily through the physical realm of a warren, which is contained within K'rul.

C. The blood:

The blood simple enough, anytime a person accesses their warren to use magic, they are accessing an artery of K'rul and using that individual warren to shape what they want to happen.

II: How do the warrens function as a system?

The analogy is made time and again throughout the series between the circulatory system of humans and the system of warrens in K'rul. We will discuss the two componant systems, first the arteries and veins, and then onto the heart.

A. The arteries: Or what we see magicians and sorcerors using in Wu.

TBH: 65, Cotillion and the 3 dragons

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'And should I now presume that for each of the warrens, Elder and new, there is a corresponding dragon? You are the flavours of K'rul's blood?'

So that makes sense, each warren/artery has its own individual flavor, allowing for the distinction amongst the warrens. When a user of Thyr accesses his warren, he goes straight to K'rul's artery that corresponds with K'rul.

Errrr, okay, that makes sense, but what's with the dragons?

The dragons are Robin to K'ruls Batman:

TBH: 66

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'[The dragons] were compelled to return to Starvald Demelain. As the sources of sorcery, they could not be permitted to interfere or remain active across the realms, lest sorcery cease to be predictable.'

The dragons provide both the flavour and the power. But how do they provide the power... the dragons inevitably lead to:

B. The heart: Or the power plant to the whole she-bang

MoI 214-215: Lady Envy

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Twin chambers to that heart - Kurald Galain, the Warren of Mother Dark - and Starveld Demelain, the Warren of... Dragons.

RG 787: Menandore

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Imagine such effrontery. Starvald Demelain. The very chambers of K'rul's heart!

Go here for a very interesting read on the fundamental nature of K'rul's heart being Stavald Demelain (Chaos) and Kurald Galain (Order) being one of diametric forces and perhaps being the power pump to get the blood circulating through K'rul.

C. The veins: Or a venture into the realm of speculation on how dragons are the link between Wu and K'rul's warren system.

So, we know that the arteries are K'rul's warrens, and are flavoured by different dragons who could be deemed as the spokespersons for each warren. We know that K'rul's heart is composed of the two eldest warrens, and powers the blood (magic) from heart through artery (warren) to an individual magic user. How does it get back?

RG: 416, Mockra & Seren Pedac

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'But K'rul understood. Spilled blood is lost blood (K'rul's splitting of his wrists), powerless blood in the end. It dies when abandoned....For the warrens to thrive, coursing in their appointed rivers and streams, there must be a living body, a grander form that exists in itself....

'K'rul realized he could not do this alone. The sacrifice, the opening of his veins and arteries, would mean nothing, would indeed fail. Without living flesh, without organized functionality.

'Ah, the warrens, Seren Pedac, they are a dialogue.'

'Dialogue. Presupposition, yes, of the plural. One with another. Or succession or succession of others, for this dialogue must be ongoing, indeed, eternal.'

'As K'rul understood, the blood flows out, and then it returns. Weak, then enlivened. Round and round.

So, the blood goes in and out, for the system to keep working. In addition, there must be living flesh in the system for it to function. Obviously the flesh has to be something inside the system, and not without, so individual warren users would not suffice as the living flesh component of the system.

Who then, or what, comprises the other end of the dialogue? Who is the living flesh that is the other half of the system? I believe I stated it earlier: Robin.

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'[The dragons] were compelled to return to Starvald Demelain. As the sources of sorcery

RG: 549, Hedge

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Like me, Emroth, you're heading for the gate. Starvald Demelain. Where anything is possible.

Including the descruction of the warrens.

It's the blood, you see. The blood of dragons. Outside and inside. Dead and living.

Why would K'rul compel the dragons to return? There need to be dragons on both the inside, the chamber/Starvald Demelain, and outside the system, Wu.

I imagine it works like this: the dragons outside the chamber allow for the accessing of the warrens by individual magic users, while the dragons in the chamber, all dead, bring the magic back to its source, Starvald Demelain, where it is then repowered through the blood of the dead dragons.

What's all this mean? Well, remember good old Sorrit, the dragon impaled by a otataral shard in TBH, the one killed by Edur for no apparent reason. Edur, who were under control of the Crippled God? If you kill all the dragons outside the system, the accessing of warrens would become impossible. Why is Emroth going to the Gate? To destroy it so that the blood can't be reenlivened by the dead Eleint, therefore destroying the warren system by taking away its efficacy.

I would question why the Soletaken Eleint, drinkers of Tiam's blood, would want to force all the Eleint back into Starvald Demelain if the removal of all of them from outside would destroy the warren syste? Perhaps we know now why Rake didn't kill all the Eleint, and left some to live.

Where is Tiam, mother of dragons? I think Tiam is K'rul's shaved knuckle in the hole. Tiam, who cannot be killed, gives birth to eleint. She could be used to repopulate the system if it ever begins to fail catastrophically. Remember, the

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dialogue must be ongoing, indeed, eternal.

On the note of the difference between Elder and Younger warrens, Holds and Houses, I would say this: K'rul is the foundation and body of warrens with dragons providing the power system. As K'rul is immortal, he doesn't have to die for evolution to take place within the autonomous sections of himself that he has created. I would say that the evolution has progressed from Holds to Houses and therefore from Hold magic (the power of one's own blood, or another's blood) to House magic and the more refined use of dragon's blood as a more efficient and efficacious use of a warren.

Third: How does the individual accessing of a warren work?

Here, I will step back for another post made approximately a year ago ,in this thread, if you would like to read it unedited, which I think presents a very good explanation for how it works.

cerveza_fiesta;215585 said:

[IMO], if SE tried to explain warrens entirely, it would probably uncover so many inconsistencies in the books that we poor forum users would be driven to insanity discussing each one....

Ok, I'm going to break into fluid mechanics for a bit here (I'm an engineer)....

I take "unveiling" in its literal meaning --to remove a covering or to reveal. When a mage unveils his warren, he's just using his body as a conduit to expose or "unveil" one of those existing links and allow power to course through him. Once uncovered, the magical connection made between warren and physical world (through the mage) leaks power like a punctured tire leaks air. The will of the mage in turn allows him to shape the forces of that warren into a bolt of death / invisibility cloak / fireball / tumbling crashing wave of destruction / etc...

When rituals happen, 1 or more mages find several of the connections between warrens and the physical world and "tie" them together to form a more powerful bolt of death / blah blah see above. Finding these connections and weaving them takes time however as seen with the letherii rituals.

In areas where magic does not work, its usually because some serious magical sh*t has gone down at that location in the past, using the natural links between the warrens and the physical world past their respective breaking points. This creates an area where a mage can't access his warren because all the connections between the warrens and the physical world are burned out. An example of this would be Beak's crazy every candle ritural he uses to protect the Bonehunter marines. It's remarked afterwards that his little dome of influence completely burned the area out....

The only point I would disagree on is the dead zones. I would state that this is an area where so much "dragon's blood"/magic has been used in so strong a manner that any enlivened "dragon's blood"/magic cannot be accessed their anymore because the area is dampened by the previous use.

Conclusion: This post took way too long and way too much effort to not have some comments and thorough critiquing done of it! There remain so many questions, and I thoroughly agree with CF's point in her post that any explanation by SE would result in a lot of inconsistencies. However, we are here to discuss Malaz, so why not try to figure out what SE is trying to figure out himself!

If you read all the way through this long as post, I owe you rep.

[Dance]

HoosierDaddy;367096 said:

If you read all the way through this long as post, I owe you rep.

Taking you up on that.

Very interesting post, I need to read it another time or two to have something significant on it though.

Edit:

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The only point I would disagree on is the dead zones. I would state that this is an area where so much "dragon's blood"/magic has been used in so strong a manner that any enlivened "dragon's blood"/magic cannot be accessed their anymore because the area is dampened by the previous use.

Why not continue with the blood/flesh analogy?

Unveiling a warren is, in effect, opening a wound in K'rul. If you open too many in the same place or too wide, then the wound does not close easily, and scars over - preventing future access.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Well done. This is a well thought out and consistent explanation. Can you give an explanation of Otataral within this framework?

The only disagreement I'm coming up with is the role of the dragons. My impression has not been that they are acting as the source or conduit of power for the warren they are aspected to. Instead they are acting in some fashion as a regulator of the warrens.

When Icarium found Sorrit dead, he noted that Osserc was the only remaining Serc-aspected dragon. The concern did not seem to be that access to a warren would be lost with the death of both aspected dragons, instead it seemed more that the possibility of control would be lost.

That brings up a related point. In your treatment of dragons, you make distinction between true and Soletaken Eleint (such as Osserc). Do you think there should be in this system?

[HoosierDaddy]

Dolorous Menhir;367123 said:

Well done. This is a well thought out and consistent explanation. Can you give an explanation of Otataral within this framework?

The only disagreement I'm coming up with is the role of the dragons. My impression has not been that they are acting as the source or conduit of power for the warren they are aspected to. Instead they are acting in some fashion as a regulator of the warrens.

When Icarium found Sorrit dead, he noted that Osserc was the only remaining Serc-aspected dragon. The concern did not seem to be that access to a warren would be lost with the death of both aspected dragons, instead it seemed more that the possibility of control would be lost.

That brings up a related point. In your treatment of dragons, you make distinction between true and Soletaken Eleint (such as Osserc). Do you think there should be in this system?

1. Perhaps they are both? One of the quotes by Cotillion talks about how the 3 Eleint were sources of sorcery. The notion of their regulation seems at odds with Cotillions statement that their presence and actions could undermine the stability of the warren system.

2. I'll have to take a look back at that section, but Icarium is acually more focused on whatever person or thing drank and so was transformed by Sorrit's blood. Blood that was also posoined by the presence of the otataral spike. Perhaps the C.G. is growing his own Eleint to take over the system?

3. There is animosity between the natural Eleint and the soletaken Eleint. That much is clear. The cause could be the fact that the soletaken sealed the gates to Starvald Demelain, preventing the natural Eleint from escaping. I also find it extremely strange that K'rul would make Osserc an aspected Eleint.

I think that perhaps in a gambit to make sure that the removal of all Eleint outside the system would be more difficult K'rul might have made certain extremely powerful soletaken Eleint aspected. Perhaps that is why Osserc has been hiding for all this time?

@Dance: That makes a lot of sense. I'll ponder it and perhaps change that aspect of it. I was originally more concerned with the theoretical engineering of the over-all system, macromagic , than its micro uses.

[Seed]

Dolorous Menhir said:

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When Icarium found Sorrit dead, he noted that Osserc was the only remaining Serc-aspected dragon. The concern did not seem to be that access to a warren would be lost with the death of both aspected dragons, instead it seemed more that the possibility of control would be lost.

Here's a completely off the wall idea. Control being the keyword.
I wonder if the reason Hounds of Shadow are able to exist is because all of the Shaper Eleint for Shadow have been killed and chained. See Ampelas. Same goes for Thyr and those Hounds of light, Kalse is chained up next to Ampelas. Off course we have no proof that all of the shapers for light and shadow are dead, but I thought it was an interesting point to chew over. Maybe if Osserc gets bumped off we'll get Hounds of the Sky popping up as a manifestation of wild sky power unguided and uncontrolled. Like the warren trying to correct for the lack of a guiding hand(talon) itself.

Anyway, this could be complete crazy talk. It's always best if you take your food for thought with a few grains of salt as it were.

-Seed ...still waiting on his local bookshop to get TtH in stock. Next week they say.

[Paran]

Nice post! Regarding the dead dragons throught SD, do you believe that was arequirement of maintaining order on sorcery, or do you think that it was something forced on the dragons?

[Tapper]

Great post. Aside from applauding it and repping you, it also causes a myriad of questions.
Shouldn't there be dragons aspected to SD as well? Rake is likely aspected to darkness, of course - this might be a support for having an aspected SD dragon?

I agree with your point on Osserc: the Soletaken dragons being aspected could be somewhat problematic, and one would suppose them to stick closely to their native warrens - Rake being Kurald Galain, for example, and so were the other Andii - so why is Osserc from Serc instead of Light or Fire?

To go more into details on that, did K'rul do the bargaining and assigning of aspects? Or was that somehow Tiam's part? How does the mother of dragons feature into this?
And if it is Tiam who is in charge of assigning aspects (a certain randomization since she might be pure chaos could cause the weird aspect for Osserc) - is she dead, locked up or whatever she is to prevent an ever-growing spread of different types of magic, ravaging K'rul like a cancer might?

And what happens to properly dead dragons, like the ones in Hood's Warren? Do they still emit/transmit magical energies? Judging from Icarium's response in the Skykeep, they do not.

With your theory, for a warren to not bleed dry, an aspected dragon on the inside and at the least one of the same type on the outside would be required. How precisely could these dragons be split in two reliable 'inner chamber' and 'flesh' parties?
If they didn't go back to Starvald Demelain willingly, a lot of warrens would have died by the battle required for it. We've seen that chaos unleashed through the warrens is as poison to them (and possibly to K'rul as well) - wouldn't warrens being bled dry hurt him to a point almost beyond recovery?

And how can the Otataral dragon exist? It's not a warren, it is in fact anathema to them.
Gah, sorry for asking such a lot of things - there's a real, real lot in your theory that makes sense.

Edit: you must spread some reputation around before giving it to Hoosier Daddy again.

[tiam]

Interesting post HD. I also beleive the dragons are guardians of the warrens. By this i mean they stop the warren being usurped like say the whirlwind fragment.

Proof of this could be lorics attempts at the QOD to get KT some protection. Sorrit dies which leaves only Osserc as the 'guardian' and the source of Serc. But Osric is also Patron of the warren of KT the same way Rke is with KG. So This leaves KT susceptible to overthrowing by other entities.

What relationship do dragons have with Elder warrens? The only Elder warren that has a dragon that we know of is KE IIRC. That may have been because of the shattering and the 'rivening through with Rashan' we see in HOC.