[HoosierDaddy]

That is certainly a unique take. I'd be interested in what information drew you to that conclusion.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

OK - here goes both opinions and questions:

I think that ST and Cotillion have been the mindermasts behind this whole thing. I think their motives remain at least partly obscure and not entirely self-serving. They've been traveling the Azath Houses, apparently for years and their schemes have resulted in their proliferation. They've an overarching plan of some sort and have been playing various gods and ascendants, with some ultimate goal - I'm just not aware of what that plan(s) is. I think they're directing, but not necessarily controlling the action all the way. Any ideas?

As for Darujistan - this city has been set up as the site for convergent conflict since GoTM, starting with its description as having been "...founded on a rumor." That Raest laid buried more or less within its foundations establishes Darujistan's fundamental identity as a seat of power. Layer upon layer, self sustaining, the "jewel" of cities, formally free of Malazan influence (although the empire has an embassy there now), possessed of its own history of having powerful leaders and an established autocracy with political virility, capable of resisting overthrow from without. And the political authority and autonomy relates nicely to Darujistan's stores of natural gas/energy - nicely metaphorical, establishing its uniqueness, singular and energetic existence - and above all - desireable. An appropriate locale for foundational characters and plot lines, and the stage upon which the action plays itself out.

I gather the theory is that Rake is protecting Hood from Traveler's assault, ultimately leading to the defining battle of the series, at least thus far. I'm not convinced. I think Hood and Traveler have an *ambivalent* relationship and I'm not convinced that Traveler/DU is driven by such unmitigated thoughts of revenge as some have stated. I'm probably wrong about this, but I too am remaining ambivalent. Rake tells Traveler that he will try to prevent him from killing someone but does not say who. And by this time Hood's already in Dragnipur in any event, so didn't even need protecting at all...no?

That Traveler is Rake's means of entering Dragnipur is obvious, but why? You want to get into Dragnipur? Cleave your own head or fall on your own sword. Or do certain conditions need to be satisfied before death by Dragnipur results in entry into that environment?

Jesus needed Judas in order to be betrayed, martyrdom being rather hard to claim if you just "rat yourself out" to the authorities. Any similar requirements here? And didn't Rake just cheat anyhow? Maybe Karsa's accusations of such reflect some grander, more "godly" sorts of codes of conduct that were violated when Rake simply let Traveler nail Dragnipur into his noggin by holding the nail up to Traveler's hammer. It would have been a bit embarassing had Traveler missed and simply cut off Rake's sword arm thus enabling him to walk off with the ultimate prize. And perhaps it was someone actually *IN* Dragnipur that Traveler wanted all along? What better way to deny him entry than to enter it your self?

Finally - what will be the consequences of now having an Azath House ensconced within Dragon blood? That throws an interesting spanner into the works does it not? Given ST/CT's ability to travel that domain new powers and capabilities may be in the offing.

I'm about to embark upon the compulsory re-read, so that's enough for now. Comments please.

And BTW - I loved the book. I also believe that reading the various bits of philosophizing is critical to understanding the whole story - much revealed therein.

OHA

[Mentalist]

hmm
I just have 1 quick question (I haven't read RotCG, so don't spoiler me if there's some kind of an answer there!)

during the big convergence, when Envy + Spite are putting the smackdown on the Hounds of Shadow (btw, where were the Degaroth during all this hound-on-hound action?), it is said that someone came out of a carriage with "bestial eyes", and the dragon-sisters backed off from the sword

Now, digging through my memory, the only one that comes up to matcht he description is the good ol' MotD (cue Apt's "Paran is not a soletaken" line)
So the question is, why didn't HE just grab the sword? I mean, is there really anyone who would've stopped him?

As for theAndii civil war--it was presented in bits and pieces. can someon please paint me a complete picture of that war. the main thing I got from it was that in order to end it, Rake went and got involved with the blood of Tiam (cue 'Byss "Tiam's a skanky ho"), and then MD walked away. but how does Drakonus fit into the equation since, as far as I remember, Rake got Dragnipur after the Fall... or was the timeline not important?


EDIT: oh, and wtf was up with that moon???

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Mentalist;370717 said:

...during the big convergence, when Envy + Spite are putting the smackdown on the Hounds of Shadow (btw, where were the Degaroth during all this hound-on-hound action?), it is said that someone came out of a carriage with "bestial eyes", and the dragon-sisters backed off from the sword...

Caladan Brood.

OHA

[Old Hunch Arbat]

And oh yes, me too - wondering WTF HIT THE MOON?!

OHA

[prq]

Hi everyone, new member to the forums

I have read the entire series (except for RotCG) and I have a potentially stupid question (or questions) myself and they're about Dragnipur

From what I understand, Draconus tried to "hide" the Gate (access) to Kurald Emurlahn inside the sword so that it couldn't be easily reached, correct? How did chaos "get in there" then and why was it going for it?

Why did Hood need to die? Wouldn't it be enough for Rake to impale himself on the sword and then, inside the sword, sacrifice himself as he did?

Sorry for these, but I think I most likely don't understand the entire concept of Dragnipur. Maybe rereading the series will help...

Thanks in advance!

[dktorode]

prq;370838 said:

Why did Hood need to die? Wouldn't it be enough for Rake to impale himself on the sword and then, inside the sword, sacrifice himself as he did?

hmm...i think he needed to be in the sword to summon the dead legion.
The legion who would hold back choas long enough for rake to do what he did.

I am not sure why rake didnt do it earlier, why it had to be so close to the end might have something to do with the tattoo on the bodies not being complete yet.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

He had to wait until Nimander and Mother Dark made it to Black Coral, for one thing. I believe it was also critical to have Clip and the Redeemer close to one another. Remember Rake was speaking to Endest (whatever his name is) and telling him he had to make sure ALL of his plans had to succeed or the total effort would fail...

OHA

[flea]

I'm on a re-read, and I have my own stupid questions:

1. What was the point of the Gothos plot line? Where the hell does Nimander get transported? What actually gets accomplished by the entire episode?

2. What about the T'lan Imass in the mine? He gets new legs, seems to have some purpose, then gets trapped by the Azath. We lose precisely nothing if that character is left out. Once is while economy is a virtue.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Quote

What was the point of the Gothos plot line? Where the hell does Nimander get transported? What actually gets accomplished by the entire episode?

I believe this is incredibly important. We get to see who is building the Azath Houses (kind of significant, no?) and we see one placed *within* dragon blood, exposure to which has potent effects upon people.

The T'Lan with the weird legs? Who knows? It ain't over till the fat lady sings.

OHA

[Aptorian]

flea;371644 said:

I'm on a re-read, and I have my own stupid questions:

1. What was the point of the Gothos plot line? Where the hell does Nimander get transported? What actually gets accomplished by the entire episode?

2. What about the T'lan Imass in the mine? He gets new legs, seems to have some purpose, then gets trapped by the Azath. We lose precisely nothing if that character is left out. Once is while economy is a virtue.

Those two pieces were some of those little morsels that Erikson feeds us in every book and I truly enjoy about this series.

On one hand they're a little story within the big story and on the other hand they're a "lore dump" expanding upon the universe.

There's been much discussion on where the Azath come from. Why they arise. What the Jaghut Towers and Azath have in common. What Gothos connection with them are. While the Gothos/Azath Builder scenes don't answer all the questions they do enlighten us and confirm a bunch of theories that's been around since the first book.... and of course open up whole new branches of questions.

The T'lan Imass part was more of a random storyline but it still told us a lot. It told us more about Raests Tyranny. It tought us that not all T'lan Imass were as "primitive" and that the Imass were on the verge of discovering metallurgy.

[Sindriss]

prq;370838 said:

Hi everyone, new member to the forums

I have read the entire series (except for RotCG) and I have a potentially stupid question (or questions) myself and they're about Dragnipur

From what I understand, Draconus tried to "hide" the Gate (access) to Kurald Emurlahn inside the sword so that it couldn't be easily reached, correct? How did chaos "get in there" then and why was it going for it?

Why did Hood need to die? Wouldn't it be enough for Rake to impale himself on the sword and then, inside the sword, sacrifice himself as he did?

Sorry for these, but I think I most likely don't understand the entire concept of Dragnipur. Maybe rereading the series will help...

Thanks in advance!

A bit late but I will try to answer your questions, forgive me for any typos.

Draconus tried to project Kurald Emurlahn from chaos that has been chasing it since the dawn of time. However he failed to realise that it was already defending itself by migraiting though realms/warrens or something. By binding it into the sword it became more stationary and would at some point be caught by the chaos since the weight of dragging the gate would increase exponentially as more things got killed by rake and eventually forced to being carried when they gave up.

I don't think rake dying was enough, he needed more help and power to keep the chaos forces from reaching the gate. If all it took was him being slayed by the sword he could have done that a long time ago. Remember he spoke about a whole line of plans which each needed to be succesful, unless disaster would strike.

Hope that kind of answered your questions.

[Mentalist]

@ Flea
I too was dissapointed by the abrupt end of the T'lann Imass Tyrant pretender.
The Gothos plotline was interesting, an the character of the builder seems too important to just dissapear forever.
As for the "Lore Dump", I think the plotline of a Jaghut married cople gone awry was the bestest lore dump EVOR.

[Deragoth]

What pages covered Rake killing Tiam? Maybe I blocked that out or missed it in a previous book. Wasn't Tiam Mother Dark? I'm confuzed about that whole side of the Elient line.

[HoosierDaddy]

1. Tiam is not mother dark.
2. It is in one of Endest's flashbacks (iirc), and in it Rake has just come back from drinking Tiam's blood. It is at this point she turns her back on all the Andii.

By the way, guys the gate in Dragnipur is the gate to Kurald Galain, not Emurlahn.

[Ahk-Thenrah]

This is one question that really really bugs me.

How fucking good of a swordsman must Whiskeyjack have been, if he was one bad leg away from offing Kallor, who himself defeated an Andii who was single handedly capable of traversing Korel, slaughtering all in his path and returning alive? Seriously, Whiskeyjack is frickin BADASS!!!

Just now remembering that its mentioned in MoI that Whisleyjack used to spar with Dassem, but still, frickin Badass!!!!

[Grief]

It says in MoI that Whiskeyjack could hold off dassem for quite some time.

[lobo the wolfman]

tiam;366983 said:

My stupid question.

A GOTMism most likely but were told some Andii had turned to SD instead of KG. Yet weve seen no sign of this. Thoughts?

Also cant wait till Tiam lets loose. Hopefully we get to see some Van Tiamage

This could be when Rake killed Tiam and became soletaken, a few others followed him in that, Korlat, Orfantal and Ruin, instand of remaining pure Andii. It was just after that that MD turned from them.

My stupid question, is it said for sure that Dassem, knew that Hood was in Dragnipur?

From Rake's and Dassem's talk it seems that he is aware that Hood is close by, just not in the sword, and just belives that Rake is there to stand in his way.

[Traveller]

Old Hunch Arbat;371543 said:

He had to wait until Nimander and Mother Dark made it to Black Coral, for one thing. I believe it was also critical to have Clip and the Redeemer close to one another. Remember Rake was speaking to Endest (whatever his name is) and telling him he had to make sure ALL of his plans had to succeed or the total effort would fail...

Another question regarding this timing... did Rake stop using the sword to kill because he knew that the wagon would eventually slow down as it became overwhelmed with piled up captives? It would seem so, as the timing was so close... he arrived within Dragnipur at the same time as it finally ground to a halt. Was this because without the pile of bodies/tattoos, his plan wouldn't have worked?

I'd say that he slowed the wagon on purpose by depriving it of pulling power, even at the risk of chaos catching up. If I've got that right, then Rake was playing a long term plan that involved a lot of perfectly-timed events - which he accomplished perfectly.

[prq]

Sindriss;371962 said:

A bit late but I will try to answer your questions, forgive me for any typos.

Draconus tried to project Kurald Emurlahn from chaos that has been chasing it since the dawn of time. However he failed to realise that it was already defending itself by migraiting though realms/warrens or something. By binding it into the sword it became more stationary and would at some point be caught by the chaos since the weight of dragging the gate would increase exponentially as more things got killed by rake and eventually forced to being carried when they gave up.

I don't think rake dying was enough, he needed more help and power to keep the chaos forces from reaching the gate. If all it took was him being slayed by the sword he could have done that a long time ago. Remember he spoke about a whole line of plans which each needed to be succesful, unless disaster would strike.

Hope that kind of answered your questions.

HoosierDaddy;372472 said:

By the way, guys the gate in Dragnipur is the gate to Kurald Galain, not Emurlahn.

Thanks for the explanation and the correction guys