[Paran]

Abyss, on Oct 21 2008, 03:49 PM, said:

seeseegee, on Oct 21 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

...but what is/was being fought in Dragnipur? I assumed it as a world of its own, keeping up with the wagon for all eternity. What was needed for Hood's army to march in and fight?

Moby, on Oct 21 2008, 10:15 AM, said:

IIRC, they're fighting chaos in Dragnipur

The KChain Matrons' death cry caused chaos to directly pursue Mother Dark. If it gets her, the universe ends. (Midnight Tides)

To prevent this, Draconus put the gate to Mommy D into a warren and inside the shiny new sword he had made. In essence, the sword uses the souls of those killed by it to power a ritual or magic which keeps the gate away from chaos.

However, rake didn't trust Draconus with the sword and took it away from him, killing Drac in the process.

A few thousand years later or so, Rake was tired of killing to fuel the sword and, it seems, came up with a plan to move the gate out.

He stops killing, the wagon slows down, chaos catches up and the chained souls aren't strong enuf to stop it. Rake kills Hood with the sword and Hood, powerful as he is, then opens a link between the Dragnipur Warren and his own warren where the dead souls he's been preparing for this for ages are waiting. The dead souls charge in, armies at the front, and delay chaos long enough for Rake to move the gate to the throneroom in Black Coral.




- Abyss, ...and now you're up to date.

And don't forget that the whole thing was part of a diabolical plot to lure Mother Dark back from deepest darkest Dark! And it worked!!

[Abyss]

Paran, on Oct 23 2008, 02:28 AM, said:

...And don't forget that the whole thing was part of a diabolical plot to lure Mother Dark back from deepest darkest Dark! And it worked!!

Didn't forget but that wasn't what was being asked. But good point as it goes to Rake not only saving the universe but also reconciling the entire Andii race with their mother/goddess.

- Abyss, would have just sent a card...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Ah, thank you for clarifying all that Gates of Darkness stuff, Abyss. Was a little confused when reading it in MT.

When you say KChain Matrons...do you mean the ones killed by Ruin and Scabby?

[Mentalist]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Oct 24 2008, 07:12 AM, said:

Ah, thank you for clarifying all that Gates of Darkness stuff, Abyss. Was a little confused when reading it in MT.

When you say KChain Matrons...do you mean the ones killed by Ruin and Scabby?

As far as I remember, we're not told which ones. it's just mentioned in MT that the "Kaschan" have made a "death spell", that's gonna bring the end of the world.
the rest is just speculative interpretation.

[Mentalist]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Oct 24 2008, 07:12 AM, said:

Ah, thank you for clarifying all that Gates of Darkness stuff, Abyss. Was a little confused when reading it in MT.

When you say KChain Matrons...do you mean the ones killed by Ruin and Scabby?

As far as I remember, we're not told which ones. it's just mentioned in MT that the "Kaschan" have made a "death spell", that's gonna bring the end of the world.
the rest is just speculative interpretation.

edit: cule, 2,222 posts....

[cerveza_fiesta]

just finished it too and holy FUCK. That is all until I catch up on these other threads.

[Abyss]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Oct 24 2008, 07:12 AM, said:

Ah, thank you for clarifying all that Gates of Darkness stuff, Abyss. Was a little confused when reading it in MT.

When you say KChain Matrons...do you mean the ones killed by Ruin and Scabby?

Mentalist, on Oct 26 2008, 03:32 PM, said:

As far as I remember, we're not told which ones. it's just mentioned in MT that the "Kaschan" have made a "death spell", that's gonna bring the end of the world.
the rest is just speculative interpretation.

Pretty much. We know the matrons tried to mess with chaos gates, we know they tended to self-destruct in spectacular fashion when faced with a loss, and we know (from Binadas) that the Edur elders believe that the matrons triggered the death spell that would hit Mommy D as a result of Scabby's attacks. We do NOT know how factual that is, tho'. They also beileve Menandore and Sukul were Scabby's daughters and we know they were actually Ossi's.

- Abyss, deceiver.

[Falco]

I can't believe you wrote that whole post without mentioning Rake's death. Possibly the best death scene since Itkovian. Itkovian figuring out the nature of his Ascendancy was superb too, although it did get a little emo in parts. I wonder when a dead character will actually die.

I didn't mind Endest Silann, or even Crokus, as much as the Kruppe-style overview meanderings and musings. Finished it late at night, like 4 in the morning, so have to go and re-read, but did not 'get' how the dead were fighting chaos. Just have this picture in my head of the Bridgeburners and Grey Swords waving their swords at an amorphous mass of grey, which makes no sense. Also if the point of the gambit was Rake come in and do his salvation thing, what exactly did Hood accomplish in Dragnipur?

Spinnock Durav was great, though the death of Orfantal felt like a throwaway at the end. Thought Nimander was brilliant, though I really wanted him to lay the proper smackdown on Clip. Dying God arc...so it was Bellurdan? Or it was a godling that crashed in that skykeep thing? Or it was a mix of both.

OK, I need to go away and re-read this mofo.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Best new creepy god thingy goes to the Dying God and the saemankelyk. That night in Morsko with all the singing scarecrows was fucked-up.

[Traveller]

Falco, on Oct 28 2008, 02:34 AM, said:

Finished it late at night, like 4 in the morning, so have to go and re-read, but did not 'get' how the dead were fighting chaos. Just have this picture in my head of the Bridgeburners and Grey Swords waving their swords at an amorphous mass of grey, which makes no sense. Also if the point of the gambit was Rake come in and do his salvation thing, what exactly did Hood accomplish in Dragnipur?

Spinnock Durav was great, though the death of Orfantal felt like a throwaway at the end. Thought Nimander was brilliant, though I really wanted him to lay the proper smackdown on Clip. Dying God arc...so it was Bellurdan? Or it was a godling that crashed in that skykeep thing? Or it was a mix of both.

When the demon Pearl is talking with Draconus, they observe that

'Chaos had found a new way to mock them. With legions and ranks, weapons and armour blazing, with standards spitting lightening into the sky. Emerging in an endless row, an army of something vaguely human shaped solely by intent, in numbers unimaginable - they did not march as much as flow, like a frothing surge devouring the ground...'

They discuss the form Chaos has taken... and wonder if it's an image created to mirror themselves, or possibly that when people die, their evil side is torn from them and ends up in Chaos. Draconus thinks there is a truth in this somewhere... something I'm sure will come up later.

So Chaos has taken the form of an actual army, which is fought by Hood's army of the dead. Hood's accomplishment was opening a way for the Dead Army into Dragnipur, and delaying Chaos long enough for Rake to do his thing.

The Dying God hitched a ride on the machine - it 'swept him up' out of the Abyss like a net. The actual being flying it is unknown. (Isn't it?)

This post has been edited by Traveller: 28 October 2008 - 11:46 AM

[Abyss]

Falco, on Oct 27 2008, 10:34 PM, said:

... Just have this picture in my head of the Bridgeburners and Grey Swords waving their swords at an amorphous mass of grey, which makes no sense. Also if the point of the gambit was Rake come in and do his salvation thing, what exactly did Hood accomplish in Dragnipur?

Rake needed Chaos held back so he could work his ritual. He couldn't do it alone, so Hood's legions were needed to fight alongside the chained souls. If Rake had just dropped in, Chaos would have overcome him before he could finish.
(pre-emptively before anyone posts it, yes, Rake's entrance did push Chaos back, but it wouldn't have STAYED back).

Quote

Spinnock Durav was great, though the death of Orfantal felt like a throwaway at the end. Thought Nimander was brilliant, though I really wanted him to lay the proper smackdown on Clip. Dying God arc...so it was Bellurdan? Or it was a godling that crashed in that skykeep thing? Or it was a mix of both.

Agreed re Spinnock and Orfantal, altho i suspect Orfie was somewhat built up in our heads, given how little the character actually appeared in the past.

Nim did get to throw Clip into a wall, which was a nice touch.

Ain't_It_Just_, on Oct 28 2008, 02:54 AM, said:

Best new creepy god thingy goes to the Dying God and the saemankelyk. That night in Morsko with all the singing scarecrows was fucked-up.

Ab. Solutely.

Traveller, on Oct 28 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

...They discuss the form Chaos has taken... and wonder if it's an image created to mirror themselves, or possibly that when people die, their evil side is torn from them and ends up in Chaos. Draconus thinks there is a truth in this somewhere... something I'm sure will come up later.

So Chaos has taken the form of an actual army, which is fought by Hood's army of the dead. Hood's accomplishment was opening a way for the Dead Army into Dragnipur, and delaying Chaos long enough for Rake to do his thing.

Yep and yep. I thought this was a nice touch, linking the whole 'dead are marching' thing we've been seeing all the way back to HoC or possibly DG.

Quote

The Dying God hitched a ride on the machine - it 'swept him up' out of the Abyss like a net. The actual being flying it is unknown. (Isn't it?)

That was my take on it: whomever was piloting the machine picked up the DG on the way, then crashed in Bastion. The DG ended up in the bowels of the Abyss (hee!) where it picked up the stray chunk of Bellurdan and set about with the kaelyk plot.


- Abyss, clearly needs an enema.

[Falco]

Fair enough, I'll buy those explanations for the moment.

Need to go back and re-read it again anyhow. At a reasonable hour this time.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Abyss, on Oct 29 2008, 02:24 AM, said:

That was my take on it: whomever was piloting the machine picked up the DG on the way, then crashed in Bastion. The DG ended up in the bowels of the Abyss (hee!) where it picked up the stray chunk of Bellurdan and set about with the kaelyk plot.
- Abyss, clearly needs an enema.

I wonder if he payed the fare?

-AIJ, contemplates a time-travelling monkey goddesstaxi driver...

[Jude]

it's been brought up before but why did Rake need to go into Drag at the precise time that he did. why didn't he just go in a year earlier or even a week earlier? Is it cause he needed someone as badass as Travman to kill him and no one like that was ever around? because it would have saved Hood and the BB an AWFUL lot of trouble

[Aptorian]

It is the weak link in Eriksons plot, and it is a really weak point.

Best explanation is that the sword couldn't be broken without letting a thousand bad things back into the world. So Rake and Hood planned for chaos to eat up the majority of the souls inside the sword before they broke it.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Perhaps Rake couldn't enter the sword without being killed by it?

[cerveza_fiesta]

yeah, just makes you wonder why he didn't just fall on it samurai style or something.

or just poke his finger on the point of the sword.

maybe it's just his ego working. He has to be beat...suicide is just too pussy for somebody of Rake's stature.

[Lisheo]

Or maybe it just happened because it provides us with a fight between two of the most kick-ass characters ever.

[Aptorian]

Yeah, but Erikson doesn't normally come off that lame.

[Lisheo]

True haha. Its entirely possible that Traveller was just there at the right time, you know. Maybe Rake didn't know what was going to happen, other than Hood showing up, killing him. Perhaps the original plan was to commit suicide and Rake simply took advantage of the appearance of Dassem.