[Old Hunch Arbat]

...magic, technology, or both?

If the K'Chaine used magic, which warren (if any)?

And what role did their so-called ritual have, in locking the Malazan world into entropic decay? Was it actually a ritual or are we simply dealing with an overawed early stage humanoids' attempt to explain "time" and all that goes with it?

Are the K'Chaine SE's answer to (taking the piss out of us) the belief that some of us earthlings have about the presence of aliens on earth in our remote past?

Or am I just rehasing an old debate?

Enquiring minds want to know!

OHA

[Aptorian]

The KCCM used a warren called Kashan... not quite sure about the spelling.

There's been some debate about whether perhaps the short-tails only use machines and the long-tails only use magic. More likely both species use a mix.

The curse most likely took place. It was what pissed of the dragons and made them destroy their cities.

[chill]

Ruin said they had some kind of magic, but they never used it in battles.
Also, if my memory serves me, in MT someone said their magic was something like sound.
In MoI it's stated their magic is aspected to chaos, though I could be wrong about it since I've read it ages ago. Maybe the chaos thing was specific to undead long-tails under influence of the Pannion Seer.

[Aptorian]

The KCCM sought to harness chaos. It didn't end well for the Matron in Morn.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Wasn't there an early reference to them being gravity-aspected as well? Hence the flying mountains.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

So....

Would it be entirely craniusintrafundamentus to suggest that:

1. The K'Chaine were not of this (Wu, or whatever you want to call it) world, that they were, in essence, a spacefaring alien race, that...

2. Anchored the primordial Wu into what we might call reality, bound to entropic inevitability by virtue of some sort of technology they possessed which, in addition to anchoring and trapping Wu, provided for the floating fortresses and allowed them to dominate and control any other entity on Wu, they encountered, and that...

3. They don't actually possess magic, keeping in mind that any vastly superior technology will always seem like magic to those who don't possess it, and that...

4. The K'Chaine were introduced to magic by the dragons who had ready access to it, and that...

5. They were never able to master magic. Given that all the other "magic bandwidth" had already been assigned they attempted to impose (more) order on the chaotic remains of the fundamental substance of magic itself, and failed.

As indicated at the outset I could, indeed have my head up my ass, but I have found this an entertaining theory to contemplate. Being "otherworldly" and their relationship (apparently dysfunctional and ultimately failed) to Chaos magic suggests some perhaps unifying relationship between the K'Chaine and the alien being that is the Crippled God. And locking Wu into the time stream could constitute some sort of event which in some way defines "Elder" and "not-Elder."

Given SE's insistence upon ambiguity, multiple POV's, philosophical musings, and conflicting/overlapping religious beliefs, I find my own theoretical musings entertaining (thank god someone does), and sometimes satisfying, as my own propensity to try to resolve the ambiguity meets with varying degrees of success - as I attempt to write my own final, "big reveal" chapter of a series that is only slightly half completed.

Other theoretical musings welcome. The more outrageous the better, provided they are actually theories you've tried out, perhaps even with some degree of satisfaction, as the "Unifying Theory of Everything" approach to life on Malaz.

OHA

[Optimus Prime]

Dolorous Menhir;354430 said:

Wasn't there an early reference to them being gravity-aspected as well? Hence the flying mountains.

Yes sound and gravity based, I believe that was in TbH...or MT.

The warren is Kaschan.

[D'rek]

Old Hunch Arbat;354648 said:

So....
Would it be entirely craniusintrafundamentus to suggest that:

I'm not sure exactly what the term "craniusintrafundamentus" is supposed to mean, so I can't really answer your direct question.

Let's go by numbers:

Old Hunch Arbat;354648 said:

1. The K'Chaine were not of this (Wu, or whatever you want to call it) world, that they were, in essence, a spacefaring alien race, that...

Probably not, given how the Malazan series steers away from any space exploration or other planets or anything like that, other then moons.
The K'chain were probably one of (if not the) original species of the Malazi-world. They, the Eres and Deragoth on 7C and some small enclaves of Jaghut all existed on Malazi-world before the Elder Gods did. Doesn't mean MD and Daeneth and even Rake and Osserc and the Tistes didn't live at the same time somewhere else, but as far as the Malazi-world is concerned, the K'chain are one of the first races, and definitely the first civilization given that primitive Jaghut were enslaved by them at some point which would presumably be before the Jaghut culture and power emerged.

Old Hunch Arbat;354648 said:

2. Anchored the primordial Wu into what we might call reality, bound to entropic inevitability by virtue of some sort of technology they possessed which, in addition to anchoring and trapping Wu, provided for the floating fortresses and allowed them to dominate and control any other entity on Wu, they encountered, and that...

I don't know about anchoring Malazi-world, it may just as plausibly emerged from the realms of Chaos by itself, but yeah they're technologically/magically advancement allowed them to colonize most of the continents (not 7C but probably all the others) and enslave some Jaghut.

Old Hunch Arbat;354648 said:

3. They don't actually possess magic, keeping in mind that any vastly superior technology will always seem like magic to those who don't possess it, and that...

of course if a techology-centred race/civilization emerged and was confronted with magic they'd think it was just super-advanced technology...

In any case we don't for sure know if they had magic or not, but I think they're ability to prevent the EGs from coming to the Malaziworld means that either:
a) They were first spawned long before the EGs, and that is how they achieved enough technology to keep the EGs from Malazi-world since birth; or
They also had magic, centred around the Matrons of a K'chain grouping as described by some characters like Kallor

Old Hunch Arbat;354648 said:

4. The K'Chaine were introduced to magic by the dragons who had ready access to it, and that...

Personally, I doubt it. But regardless, if they didn't have magic and were "introduced to it", it could've been by the Elder Gods, the Jaghut, the Tiste folk, the Imass, or through encounters with the Deragoth. No reason to think it was dragons.

Old Hunch Arbat;354648 said:

5. They were never able to master magic. Given that all the other "magic bandwidth" had already been assigned they attempted to impose (more) order on the chaotic remains of the fundamental substance of magic itself, and failed.

Old Hunch Arbat;354648 said:

As indicated at the outset I could, indeed have my head up my ass, but I have found this an entertaining theory to contemplate. Being "otherworldly" and their relationship (apparently dysfunctional and ultimately failed) to Chaos magic suggests some perhaps unifying relationship between the K'Chaine and the alien being that is the Crippled God. And locking Wu into the time stream could constitute some sort of event which in some way defines "Elder" and "not-Elder."

Given SE's insistence upon ambiguity, multiple POV's, philosophical musings, and conflicting/overlapping religious beliefs, I find my own theoretical musings entertaining (thank god someone does), and sometimes satisfying, as my own propensity to try to resolve the ambiguity meets with varying degrees of success - as I attempt to write my own final, "big reveal" chapter of a series that is only slightly half completed.

Other theoretical musings welcome. The more outrageous the better, provided they are actually theories you've tried out, perhaps even with some degree of satisfaction, as the "Unifying Theory of Everything" approach to life on Malaz.

OHA

It is a neat theory and don't let me stop you from continuing on with it. I just hope I've helped to cast a critical eye on your theory and now you get to refine it to fit stuff.
Generally, the lack of information concerning the K'chain means that just about anything could be true, and yet they have so many huge hints thrown their way, such as them keeping away the EGs or time-bombing all of existance. Makes you wonder just when SE and ICE finally decided everything about the K'chain. After all, those arm-bone thingies from GotM were apparently found in a K'chain tomb.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

I'm being a twat and using my profession to invent medical words...

craniusintrafundamentus :

Cranio = head
intra = within
fundamentus = rectum (probably slang rather than scientific)

So I basically recapped at the end by suggesting that I might have my head up my ass.

I may counter-rebut (oh god, forgive the pun) as time allows, but thank you for the feedback.

Surely I can't be the only one attempting to stitch this all together with some wildly implausible theory. I'd just love to hear from others about their "I know how this movie ends" opinions.

OHA

[HoosierDaddy]

Old Hunch Arbat;354648 said:

So....

Would it be entirely craniusintrafundamentus to suggest that:

1. The K'Chaine were not of this (Wu, or whatever you want to call it) world, that they were, in essence, a spacefaring alien race, that...

No, TBH provides direct quotes that the KCCM were invaders. If needed I'll post them.

Quote

2. Anchored the primordial Wu into what we might call reality, bound to entropic inevitability by virtue of some sort of technology they possessed which, in addition to anchoring and trapping Wu, provided for the floating fortresses and allowed them to dominate and control any other entity on Wu, they encountered, and that...

Well we know that they wounded the universe such that it will eventually die. Beyond that we don't know anything.

Quote

3. They don't actually possess magic, keeping in mind that any vastly superior technology will always seem like magic to those who don't possess it, and that...

We have direct quotes that the KCCM used magic, but their resurrection of the KCNK reinvigorated the more scientific theories of sound/gravity/anti-gravity.

Quote

4. The K'Chaine were introduced to magic by the dragons who had ready access to it, and that...

5. They were never able to master magic. Given that all the other "magic bandwidth" had already been assigned they attempted to impose (more) order on the chaotic remains of the fundamental substance of magic itself, and failed.

No, the Matrons, who controlled all of the inherent magic of their brood were extremely powerful beings. They did indeed master magic enough to resurrect their founders.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Regarding the use of magic. There was scene in MT when the Fear took Trull to the Stone Bowl to show him Scabby's skull. The place was filled with KCCM bones, and Fear explained that their warren could still be felt there. He named it Kaschan, and if I remember correctly he linked it to sound. He also said it was dead/fallen into disuse (forget the exact phrasing).

Now the Tiste Edur are not the most reliable source of ancient knowledge, but I think it's safe to say that yes, they were magic users, in addition to technology.

[eekwibble]

@ OHA - The KCCM are referred to somewhere as the first-born of dragons. I'm sorry, I don't have the book reference even though I've just googled it and tried the forum 'search' function.

The dragons are from SD, we know. The K'Chain history we have is difficult to pull together because of it's sporadic placement in the books.

Like DM said; Kaschan was aspected as far as we can guess to sound, so: invention of technology based on sound (and linking the warren?) keeping Skykeeps up?

[Illuyankas]

I'm pretty sure they were using sound as an analogy to describe gravity.

Incidentally, has Steve used the word gravity in the books in some kind of 'not knowing the gravity of the situation' context?

[Lisheo]

The KCCM trapped Mother Dark at something like the centre of the universe, as a big spinning vortex ( black hole, I guess) that will devour everything eventually, and bring existence to an end, according to RG.
They are indeed mentioned as the First Born of Dragons (in MT,tBH or MoI I think, one of em, dont have my copies with me right now so I cant find the exact quote), which suggests maybe they are what feral dragons evolved into once they left SD or something like that.
Kaschan was formed of "words that loosen the bindings that hold all matter together", while not the exact quote, is close enough. Sounds a bit like they use sound to disrupt gravity/intermolecular forces.
The KCNR, the proto-KCCM essentially, were the ones who built the sky keeps, and seemed to use Kaschan to do it, remember the antigravity chamber Iccy and Mappo find in tBH.
If you remember, when Karsa killed a KCNR and it was cut open for the autopsy, little symbiotic mechanical worms were found in its gut, suggesting they really had some serious knowledge of biology and technology. Also, maybe the KCNR came from somewhere essentially very different to Wu, and those worms helped them adapt and survive...
The Matrons were decribed as holding the collective magic power of their entire broods, and that is what gave them the strength to prevent the presence of the Elder Gods on Wu. They were defeated when they revived the KCNR, who refused to lend them their power, causing the civil war. But when ya have the power of a couple of hundred thousand lizard-alien-engineer-mages on your side, you are probably able to protect your homeworld from the Elder Gods. Im surprised they couldnt take out the Deragoth tho.

[caladanbrood]

@Illy

MoI said:

A shrill hiss from Crone recaptured her wandering attention.
The Great Raven had half spread her wings, halting directly in front of the warlord. 'You still do not grasp the gravity of this! Fool! Ox! Where is Anomander Rake? Tell me! I must speak with him - warn him—'
'Of what?' Brood asked. 'That a few hundred condors have chased you away?'

Yes;)

[Illuyankas]

Excellent. All we need now is a character to use the word gravity to actually reference the concept of gravity and we're done.

[caladanbrood]

Yeah, unfortunately I can't find any other uses of the word.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

I'll concede they had magic, but that they did is ultimately irrelevant. I will stand my ground, however in declaring that the KCCM were not native to Wu.

That the KCCM were alien, I think, has been referenced above. And the concept of alien, including the notion of beings from "space" is further reinforced by descriptions of the Crippled God's origins and Heboric's travels. I suppose that it is not necessarily "outer space" that SE is referring to. Perhaps the Crippled God has been pulled from some other type of "space", including a parallel universe or another dimension. Nevertheless I believe that both he and the KCCM are not native to Wu.

I think that it is in the description of the Udinaas/Fear/SR/Kettle/SP diaspora that we are given a conversation between characters that describes the inevitable outcome of the KCCM "curse." I'll try to locate that conversation - but if anyone else can easily recall its origins, please post it. In any case this curse will result in the world eventually coming to an end. To my minds eye/ear this sounds like entropy. It also therefore suggests that before this curse the world was somehow divorced from entropic effects and thus in a state of some kind of suspended animation that allowed for a fairy tale type of permanence. What this means to me is simply that this story could not start with "Once upon a time..." Wu is anchored in time and is therefore real and subject to the same universal laws as the rest of us. That the dragons were enraged by this suggests some other sort of existence for them, Mother Dark, etc., before the KCCM invaded. Creation stories are full of these sorts of accounts - of a timeless, perpetual dimension cast into a space defined by physical and temporal constraints. "And on the first day god created (some space) and on "some" day he rested (time now flows).

Further, the world within which our characters exist is, aside from one exception, notably free of descriptions of technology, other than what is associated with mention of the KCCM. We hear nothing of steam engines, mass transit of any sort other than horse drawn caravans, guns, electricity etc. I believe this is important.

The only exception to the abscence of technology in these stories lies in what we are told about the use of Moranth munitions. And there are threads in these forums where readers rant about the ubiquitous "Cusser" solution to characters in a jam, with no apparent way out of it. In my opinion what we are seeing here is reflective of a fundamental conflict within this world which is repeatedly hinted at but never overtly described - and which ultimately reverberates back to the KCCM. This "Cusser effect" is actually the "technology effect." And as is apparent in the description of the effect of munitions, technology does indeed trump magic - repeatedly. Each time the use of munitions benefits those using them, both in large scale battles, and in one on one conflict we have our attention drawn to this deeper level of conflict, not so much between protagonists, but between paradigms of power.

Technological advancement ultimately does away with the need for magic as tasks are accomplished by means other than having to access a warren. Technology ultimately "trickles down" as well, and becomes available to those other than the group who possess magic, or who have the authority to "possess" those who can use magic. Technology therefore ultimately threatens the social order and will frighten those who may well become obsolete. I believe that this threat is what so enraged the ruling aristocracy - the dragons and others who depended in one way or another upon magic - as they no longer had the only means to stay at the top of the social ladder. By all means squabble with others of your own social class, but to have your ass handed to you by a bunch of peasants carrying hand grenades?! Not!

Thus is demonstrated time and again, why the dragons were so threatened by the KCCM - they were physically powerful, they did away with the state of permanence that existed in/on Wu before they invaded, and they introduced the notion of technology that threatened those who relied upon magic both in an immediate way (Sichas Ruin go boom!) and, ultimately, in a social sense, as the commonality benefitted by technological advancements that liberated them from their reliance upon magic-users. Not only can the low born directly threaten magic users in combat, their access to the power inherent in technology which they will inevitaly gain access to renders the high born obsolete. Remember what happened to the French aristocratic, armor-clad knights when they encountered large groups of plebian, longbow-wielding Englishman. Ouchie! Goodbye feudalism hello parliament. Obviously other factors were involved, but access to technology played a significant role.

That the KCCM possessed magic I believe is irrelevant. And how they gained access to the Kaschen warren, when they were certainly not native to the world within which their warren existed remains to be seen. And as stated in one of the posts above, the KCCM warren fell into disuse. It could be that this is simply because the KCCM, so far as we know thus far, have been eliminated as a force to be reckoned with. But we have suggestions that perhaps the KCCM are not a spent force. Further, KCCM technological prowess may also explain an unused warren. If you have a bomb, why wait around for the warren to unveil? Just light the fuse and run like hell.

More remains to be seen. I hope we run into the KCCM again, and in greater detail. Perhaps my opinion will be vindicated. It may well be that I'm dead wrong - but I'm having fun playing with my theories.

Anyone else got any wild theories they want to entertain us with - please?

OHA

[Lisheo]

Well, lets see... Their aqquisition of the warren is an interesting point, perhaps its worth starting a thread to see how all the races got their warrens...
Well, lets see, Tellan as it is now was made from the Ritual, wasnt it?
According to Toc, the Wolf Gods were masters of OP and the CG's fall wounded them enough to allow the Jaghut to take over.
The Andii were born in KG, same applies to the Dragons with SD,the other tiste races... Maybe Kaschan is where the Dragons "made" the KCCM?

[Old Hunch Arbat]

More fanciful theorizing...

The KCCM have been described in many ways - alien invaders, the first born of dragons, etc. - and then there is reference to them/their eggs (or some other unformed potential) rolling around in the ocean - which somehow causes some humans to be born with clawed feet and other deformities - no? My daughter has absconded with my RG so I can't provide the specific name, but those KCCM/human almalgams became the Shake witches, if my memory serves me correctly.

These multifarious references provide much incentive to ask questions and to postulate theories. And the terms used to describe the KCCM also allow for much interpretaion i.e. "First born of dragons" could mean anything from a simple description of appearance ("Wow, those look like a cross between a dragon and a ****!") or, from a more physiological perspective could describe the result of some true mating. So what could mate with a dragon to produce a KCCM? So here are a list of questions:

1. Are KCCM true dragon/dragon offspring, a true-breeding race unto themselves or...
2. Are the KCCM the result of some invasive, alien contaminent, with virus-like capabilities such that exposure to that contaminent, in some form, and dragons produces KCCM (long tails) or...
3. Are the Shake the only viable offspring of human/contaminent combination, with the nonviable getting tossed back into the ocean off of cliffs where they become KCCM (long tails or short tails) or something else or...?
4. Are the KCCM alive and managing to survive on another continent and...
5. Have the KCCM been beaten back by native Malazans by virtue of a deficiency in their ability to think strategically because their alien neuroanatomy simply doesn't allow for it and...
5. Was Redmask a failed attempt on the part of the KCCM to recruit a Fist to direct their combat efforts...

...and, and , and...?????

What thinketh ye all?

OHA