[Dolorous Menhir]

Finished reading the book last night. Though it was pretty good. Just a few questions - not big central things, but interesting.


1. Who is Vorcan's daughter? There were at least two references to her, as if we should know or be able to work out who she is.


2. Hood only has three fingers on one hand - significant? It made me think of Feather Witch...


3. Did anyone else think it strange that the two Hounds of Light first seen had names very similar to the mysterious eighth Hound of Shadow, Pallick? Their names were Pallid and Lock.


4. Are we all satisfied that Hood is a Jaghut yet? Anyone still holding out on that one?


5. Why didn't anyone just tell Dassem that Rake had already killed Hood? I understand Rake's motive for not saying - he needed Dassem to kill him. But Cotillion could've said so easily.


6. Any clues on who the woman-in-the-leopard was, that Gruntle met on his dream-trip to the past? She came from New Morn, and Gruntle assumed that meant she was from his past as he knew Morn as a ruin. Could he have been wrong, and she came from the future instead?


7. Anyone else a little unclear on what was going on with the Dying God/Bellurdan? I was.


Maybe my favourite moment - when reading one of the chapter opening passages about three riders, and gradually realising they were Toc, Brukhalian and Whiskeyjack.

Thanks for reading.

[Imperial Historian]

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1. Who is Vorcan's daughter? There were at least two references to her, as if we should know or be able to work out who she is.

Read RotCG

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3. Did anyone else think it strange that the two Hounds of Light first seen had names very similar to the mysterious eighth Hound of Shadow, Pallick? Their names were Pallid and Lock.

Yep, I've wondered on that too, but as far as i can tell it has no significance, save maybe a nod from SE to acknowledge the fact that pallick disappeard, or just complete coincidence.

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5. Why didn't anyone just tell Dassem that Rake had already killed Hood? I understand Rake's motive for not saying - he needed Dassem to kill him. But Cotillion could've said so easily.

Well cotillion needed dassem to kill rake as well, he and shadowthrone had been plotting it all along after all.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't have RotCG, haven't seen it in the bookshops beside NoK yet. Without giving any spoilers, is the reference to her a significant thing or just a nod to the companion books?

[graller]

She has a small but extremely critical role in Return of the Crimson Guard

[Cougar]

4. Yes we all are, everyone with a working brain has been for a while haven't they

5. Well a lot of people have been saying why did Rake have to die like that, basically we asked Steve and he said it had to have a certain degree of drama, like, how shit would it have been if he just fell on Dragnipur, right. I guess Cotilion or Shadowthrone didn't say anything because they say that it was necessary for someone to kill Rake like IH said.

7. The dying god was a somewhat confusing story after talking it through it seems the bits of Bellurdan that were bitter and shit tagged onto a flying machine that was traversing the floor of the Abyss and dropped into Wu. Beyond that why it was in, it was a device I guess, to drive along the Nimander story and force the Redeemer from inaction and also an opportunity for SE to comment on oil dependency.

[Macros]

I may be blurry from the time break in my reading, but I got the impression the lady that gruntel talked to was whats her face of the Imass, and asssumed it had something to do with her sole taken form.

[Obdigore]

Oh...do you mean Kilava, Maccy?

I hadn't thought of that, and for some reason I don't think Kilava would be flirting with him like that.

2) Noticed it, didn't attach any significance to it.
3) Again, don't know if there is any significance, or if it was just the names SE decided would be good for hounds of light.
7) Very much. Maybe it was as throw-away as the Awl story seemed to be? I don't know.

I would still like to see some discussion on how the hounds can breed. There were extra hounds of light and one was still not recovered from having pups...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Macros;353644 said:

I may be blurry from the time break in my reading, but I got the impression the lady that gruntel talked to was whats her face of the Imass, and asssumed it had something to do with her sole taken form.

Maybe - was she a Soletaken leopard though? I imagined her as a black panther, something along those lines. Also, did the two of them never meet or here of each other during MoI? They were both at Coral in the end.

Cougar - oil dependency? I never picked up on that at all. Really?

Obdigore - why the question mark over breeding hounds? The Hounds of Shadow were described as a family over several generations when they were first introduced in GotM. It's not as if all Hounds seen previously sprang into existence together, fully formed.

[Obdigore]

@DM - Yes well, I had assumed that they were just roles the hounds fell into, and that they had been fully formed. The alpha male and female assume the mom and pop role and so on...

Yes, apparently SE said at one of the signings that the whole thing was about the Wests' Oil Dependancy.

[Cougar]

Yeah he told us at a book signing or the BBQ I forget (I was pissed at both). I thought it was a bit pointless and a little obscure, but as I said in other threads he can do what he likes as long as he keeps delivering. I actually thought it was about weakness and dependency (the Kelyk reminded me of a drug), but that's the CG's bag isn't it.

I was brought to mind of the W.S Burroughs quote when reading about the Kelyk addicts:

"Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy...the junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to his product"

with the populace enslaved by the Kelyk, sacrificing the scarecrows etc.

Also, Kilava is deffo a Black Panther. That said though, without being a pedantic cat, all black big cats are melonistic varieties of other animals, a black panther can be a Jaguar for example but in most cases a black panther is an all black coloured leopard.

[Optimus Prime]

In regards to Rake's death, it had to happen someway, why not make it an awesome and moving scene? By the way, is anybody amazed that SE made Rake even more of an awesome, mysterious character during this book and then OFFED him? Awesome.

[Illuyankas]

1. A ROTCG reference, apparently.
2. Might be important, might be a throwaway.
3. I saw that and immediately thought tribute.
4. Anyone who has finished the book, sentence outright naming Hood as a Jaghut, and still thinks otherwise is a berk.
5. Rake was sort of standing/kneeling over the corpse of Hood at the time. I'm pretty sure Dassem knew Hood was dead, but wanted to get into Dragnipur to kill his soul properly.
6. No idea. Ardatha, another god of war coming out of the woodwork, another mystery Imass, no clue whatsoever.
7. Cougar has it, I'd say.

And I caught that bit on the reread and thought it was awesome, and only slightly less awesome when I realised it was the heading for the chapter they appear in.

[Morgoth]

7. What Cougar said, but also I think the storyline served as a contrast to what Rake set out to do, and what he offered his followers. I think the contrast made the final sacrifice even more touching

[Dolorous Menhir]

Another question: is Tulas Shorn one of the Edur royals that Scabby killed in order to take power?

edit: and another -why did Gorlas see a vision of Kruppe's personal qualities before going to his final duel? Kruppe taking credit for engineering the death?

[Abyss]

Dolorous Menhir;353584 said:

...

2. Hood only has three fingers on one hand - significant? It made me think of Feather Witch...

You may be on to something there.

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4. Are we all satisfied that Hood is a Jaghut yet? Anyone still holding out on that one?

It was a trick!!!!! He's a soletaken bhockaral!!!!!!!

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5. Why didn't anyone just tell Dassem that Rake had already killed Hood? I understand Rake's motive for not saying - he needed Dassem to kill him. But Cotillion could've said so easily.

I interpretted that exchange as Cotillion telling Dassem exactly that - ie: Cot told him Rake just stuck Hood in Dragnipur and there's only one was for you to get to him...

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6. Any clues on who the woman-in-the-leopard was, that Gruntle met on his dream-trip to the past? She came from New Morn, and Gruntle assumed that meant she was from his past as he knew Morn as a ruin. Could he have been wrong, and she came from the future instead?

A little part of me wonders if 'NEW MORN' is actually in Gruntle's future, not past. I had the same reaction as others of thinking it was Kilava, but now that i think about it, Imass have only ever ref'd Morn as 'Morn'.... maybe the 'New' is yet to happen. No reason Gruntle had to be the 'present' time traveller. Hmmm...

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7. Anyone else a little unclear on what was going on with the Dying God/Bellurdan? I was.

Yep. Still chewing on this.

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Maybe my favourite moment - when reading one of the chapter opening passages about three riders, and gradually realising they were Toc, Brukhalian and Whiskeyjack.
...

AG.REED.

Dolorous Menhir;354498 said:

Another question: is Tulas Shorn one of the Edur royals that Scabby killed in order to take power?

That was my thought. The timing and hints seem to line up.

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edit: and another -why did Gorlas see a vision of Kruppe's personal qualities before going to his final duel? Kruppe taking credit for engineering the death?

Based on Kruppe's apparent premonition that Cutter could and would take out Gorlas and avenge Murillio, i suspect this was a reflection of Gorlas sensing Kruppe's visions, so to speak.



- Abyss, ...okay, so the dying god was a lost child god and also bellurdan and one of them met hairlock and wait, no.... hairlock me the god and .... my head hurts.

[Aptorian]

But we're supposing that the machine Bellurdan hitched a ride on was Icariums?

Because that would mean that Iccy is loose on Lether and Mappo went the wrong way, also it would seem... strange that no one picked up on that. Rake would certainly had been cautious at the thought of Iccy being so close to Black Coral.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Why does it have to be Icarium's machine from BH? It could be one of his earlier creations, or just some random KCCM tech floating round Chaos.

[Aptorian]

Of course it could just be a random machine, but it would just be a nice link and explanation as to what happened in RG.

Also, there was some remark, can't remember it exactly, but I'm sure Dying God says he came up with "him". The machine was already moving, coming from some place and because it was broken it crashed in Morn.

Would fit nicely with the botched ritual at the end of RG.

[Abyss]

But Iccy's machine from TB (assuming you mean the one he and Mappo found frozen) was a KChain construct.

'Someone' was using one of those, picked up the DG en route and crashed in Bastion, whereupon the DG hoooked up with Bellurdan's stray soul fragment, hung out with Hairlock and started causing trouble....

Wait... didn't we see Bastion in MoI.... via Toc and the Pannion Seer or Envy's group, and there wasn't any ref to a stray KC machine lying around?

- Abyss, is really going to have to read on this point....

[HoosierDaddy]

Abyss;354697 said:

But Iccy's machine from TB (assuming you mean the one he and Mappo found frozen) was a KChain construct.

'Someone' was using one of those, picked up the DG en route and crashed in Bastion, whereupon the DG hoooked up with Bellurdan's stray soul fragment, hung out with Hairlock and started causing trouble....

Wait... didn't we see Bastion in MoI.... via Toc and the Pannion Seer or Envy's group, and there wasn't any ref to a stray KC machine lying around?

- Abyss, is really going to have to read on this point....

We did, it was the first city they came to in the Domin, and they got there just in time for the hungry hordes to begin their march towards Capustan. I imagine it fell after everybody left.