[Cause]

Im just curious if anyone else struggled at times with what seemed endless paragraphs of just useless nonsense. Endless philosophising on nonsense, nimander and skintick having a cryptic conversation about time as the only worthy god. Pauses in between the novel where the plot was been driven rapidly forward only to be crushed beneath the weight of kruppe suddenly narrating to the reader, a new style I’m not sure I enjoyed, or characters introspection.

Now SE has used all of these things before, but in previous books I found it enjoyable. Suddenly I just got the sense that I needed to read through too much rubbish to get to something decent at times It was too much, or just seemingly pointless at times.

[blackzoid]

Ya.
Its gotten worse as the books go by. Think it started around The Bonehunters.
Doesn't Kruppe even mention this in a self-referential manner in the book?
One good thing is that Ian Cameron doesn't write like that.

[caladanbrood]

I think the worse was in Reaper's Gale actually. I skipped big chucks of philosophising in that, but thought it was less so in TtH. Takes all sorts I suppose;)

[tiam]

I have to say i normally find it reasonably boring. The whole philosphy takes a similar tact (ie humanity is evil and many ppl are bastards) in every book but I think cause has hit the nail on the head there. Something ruined this Novel and now i know what t is.

Brood- Id agree with you but i did a full reread of the series and RG alot better the 2nd or third time you read it. Also on an unrelated point wats IADMAITTTISS

[Use Of Weapons]

Nope. I'm an amateur student of philosophy, and I love the way Erikson weaves it into his narrative.

[tiam]

jitsukerr;349425 said:

Nope. I'm an amateur student of philosophy, and I love the way Erikson weaves it into his narrative.

Yeh i do normally this one just seemed a bit overboard

[Flawed]

I felt the same with anything to do with that old Warlock. Forgotten his name. Waffle is a good word cause,

[tiam]

Endest Sillan. Spinnock played a main role but did bugger all till his fight with Kallor. Alot of it was wafle.

I admit ive lost faith in Erikson pulling all these threads together. All the random comments hes made about everything added to the timeline consistency makes me think hes gonna come up with something that doesnt comply with all the facts. Although the time line doesnt bother me it proves hes not infallible. Hes made so many ground breaking off hand comments(see measure of power thread) that hes bound to miss one.

I know this is blasphemy

[Flawed]

I was thinking the other day how is he going to pull it all together. Then i figured he will probably have it all crash down into a maelstrom of absolute confusion, only to then have Burn wake up. Burn then turns out to be a teenage girl called Bernadette, who had one too many the night before in a Welsh pub, who then promptly declares............ " not that dream again ", then goes down stairs for a fry up and tea.

Its the only way it will all work out, mark my words

[caladanbrood]

Heheh, I was doubting him after Reaper's Gale, but now I have faith in him again:)

Clearly he won't answer all the questions, and tie up all the loose ends - that would be exceedingly dull, not to mention unrealistic.

[Flawed]

Also, as per his own statement at the old signings. There will be other books linked to it all. another 6 or some jazz like that?

See i know my stuff.

I however prefer my version of the end.

[tiam]

so theres the ten MAIN books with Korbal Broach style novellas filling in the other blanks. Along with Cam adding his own 5 books.

I dont whther i like this idea. After the 10 main books the others wont feel as Epic anymore. The stakes in the main series are existence itself.

[S Ruin]

everyone is entitled to their opinion ofcourse but I believe this is what is known as a catch 22 - damn if he SE does and damn if he dosent. I knew it was only a matter of time till people started questioning his writing. he has reached such a level of writing that the only way is down. Me for one i think the guy is a genius. fair enough i think his writing has dipped a little bit but to me this guy is still averaging at least a 7.5/8 out of 10 in his books. the 1st five books were out of this world. I am talking 9/10 out of 10. His level of writing is unparalleled in this writing genre. (maybe Raymond Feist in his earler days possibly and George R.R Martin in his 1st 3 books)

I personally believe erikson has his hands tied behind his back. People might not want to say this but ever since cam arrived on the scene, erikson does not have total freedom again to do as he pleases in the malazan universe. suddenly his writing seems to be on a leash because he has to accomodate cams writing. please i am not knocking cam because i love his writing as well but something just feels weird. it was always bound to happen.

I really liked Tth. I think the problem writers have is always trying to teach people lessons too blatantly. Erikson is more subtle. you might all call it needless ramble but there is substance to his philosophy. read btw the lines and you will realise this guy is not just talking garbage.

[Dragnipurake]

I really dont think the writing level has dipped. the only difference is that for a lot of us, the first few books (1-5 for me) were already published when we started reading them. I read 1-5 over a span of 1-2 months, and then had to wait over a year for each of the next three. Time spent forming opinions, conclusions one would like to see, characters to die and to 'win' etc, and time spent in extensive discussions on various topics in this forum (I never could like Icarium more than karsa because I happened to read book 4 earlier than 2, and most on this forum seemed to like Icarium as they read DH first; this only added to my preference for karsa's character). so, i guess the first few books were read without any expectations but now we have them, and if the next book doesnt satisfy them, then the writing has deteriorated. and SE cannot satisfy everyone's expectations, like the one god in RG. much like the relation between a god and his/her followers that SE describes!

I actually felt from the first 3 books (till the bonehunters appear) of RG that it was going to be the best of the series. I definitely feel TTH is THE best. I imagine the best way to enjoy the rest of them is to wait till both DoD and TCG come out before reading them. I wanted to try this but couldnt resist reading the TTH. so, no, the writing is as good as it ever was, and I am really glad SE does not frequent this forum that much (as he stated).

[tiam]

Id say only Magician of Feists work compares to SE. Ive read a Game of thrones and was imprssed with the style and story but havnt got back round to it.

Dont get me wrong the style is still good and maybe your right that his hands have been tied by ICE but on the whole it seems like he has set up so many snippets in the first 5 books like plot lines hes now resolvin, like in RG, and also the nuggets hes had in the early books, like Kalams vision in HOC on the first empire. It just seems like hes struggling to bring all these loose ends together.

I suppose im annoyed at the introduction of so manynew things in TTH. For example the threat of the KCCM that has been building, the Teblor hordes that were supposed to reign terror on Genabackis, the rise of the tyrnat etc. Now im in no way saying that Erikson has to comply with my predictions but the simple introduction of a Dying God that wasnt resolved, like a sort of Eg with the ties to blood etc. The intoduction of Kelyk, to me , felt like a cheap plot device. Im not sure why but this liquid that makes people helpless and psycotic (?) simply doesnt appeal to me and felt disjointed with the rest of the series. Bellurdan becoming a god seems like Erikson not letting characters die. Have we had any real deaths in the series?

This coupled with the emphasis on philosphy rather than plot made TTH difficult to read. Now all the reviews ive read (like on Pats Blog) say until the last 200 pages the book is slow etc an is saved by the ending. To me although the ending was good it just seemed again a bit disjointed and a convergence for the sake of a convergence. It felt unnatural. Like The introduction of Spinnock and all his plot line simply to hold Kallor who we never find out why he was going there in the first place.

[Reborn]

Dragnipurake has a point. I read the first six books with few breaks in between and then, even though it is a great book, not even the worst in the series, I got somewhat disappointed with Reaper's Gale, and I'm sure that's partly because my expectations had built to unreasonable heights during the long wait.

I decided to set reign on my expectations for Toll the Hounds ...and it worked (partly because it's a better book than Reaper's Gale, of course). I was not disappointed. Too high expectations are never good. I think that, in many peoples' eyes, Erikson reached his peak with DH and MoI, and no matter what he writes now it will be inferior compared to those books. But I think that Erikson, in many vital areas, has improved as an author since the first books. Don't get me wrong, Deadhouse Gates is without doubt one of the best in the series, but when it comes to prose I'd say Toll the Hounds is the best, closely followed by Midnght Tides. Of course, some of the books are better than others, but Steven Erikson is an author who has achieved what many authors have failed doing; writing a massive, epic series with a constant high quality. And he deserves credit for that. Big time.

[phart]

S Ruin;350489 said:

everyone is entitled to their opinion ofcourse but I believe this is what is known as a catch 22 - damn if he SE does and damn if he dosent. I knew it was only a matter of time till people started questioning his writing. he has reached such a level of writing that the only way is down. Me for one i think the guy is a genius. fair enough i think his writing has dipped a little bit but to me this guy is still averaging at least a 7.5/8 out of 10 in his books. the 1st five books were out of this world. I am talking 9/10 out of 10. His level of writing is unparalleled in this writing genre. (maybe Raymond Feist in his earler days possibly and George R.R Martin in his 1st 3 books)

I personally believe erikson has his hands tied behind his back. People might not want to say this but ever since cam arrived on the scene, erikson does not have total freedom again to do as he pleases in the malazan universe. suddenly his writing seems to be on a leash because he has to accomodate cams writing. please i am not knocking cam because i love his writing as well but something just feels weird. it was always bound to happen.

I really liked Tth. I think the problem writers have is always trying to teach people lessons too blatantly. Erikson is more subtle. you might all call it needless ramble but there is substance to his philosophy. read btw the lines and you will realise this guy is not just talking garbage.

Define "level of writing" in your context and what is the unit of measurement? Is it objective or subjective scoring?

I like SE books a lot, i think his imagination is great, however, in my own opinion GRRM is just a lot easier to read as it isn't chock a block with consistency errors, sure getting a book once a year is amazing especially considering the high standard, but sometimes i wish an extra 6 months was spent on ironing out the inconsistencies. There are loads (or seem so in my eyes) i won't enumerate them i'm sure we all know a few.

Interesting point about the Co author part, guess we'll never know but if a certain figure turns out to be a certain person, then, the calloboration isn't water tight.

[Cause]

I think Cams always been on the scene though. They are co-creators and close firends. Its was always meant that cam would have his parts to write.

Also Im not knocking Erikson. Love the series. DHG is still one of my all time best books. Its just I have enjoed reapers gale and now toll the hounds not half so much. Was it still good, yes. Was it still exciting, yes. Was I annoyed with parts,yes

[tiam]

phart;350543 said:

Define "level of writing" in your context and what is the unit of measurement? Is it objective or subjective scoring?

I like SE books a lot, i think his imagination is great, however, in my own opinion GRRM is just a lot easier to read as it isn't chock a block with consistency errors, sure getting a book once a year is amazing especially considering the high standard, but sometimes i wish an extra 6 months was spent on ironing out the inconsistencies. There are loads (or seem so in my eyes) i won't enumerate them i'm sure we all know a few.

Interesting point about the Co author part, guess we'll never know but if a certain figure turns out to be a certain person, then, the calloboration isn't water tight.

The inconsistencies are few and far beetween and the time line errors do not bother as much as they seem to bother some ppl

[Imperial Historian]

Personally I think Steve's prose in this book was a step above anything he has written before, the only one even close as a work of 'Literature' is MT in my opinion. Steve mentioned that MT is the book which wrote itself and he considers to be his most literary novel, but I think TTH is a step above MT in terms of writing style, he's really matured.

That said though the writing style is considerably improved, I still prefer DhG and MOI for their immensely strong storyline and emotional impact, which TTH didn't quite reach, though I still think it is one of his better books.

Regarding the kelyk thread, he mentioned that this was written so he could explore western civilisations addiction to oil, and that he changed the writing style and added these new threads to challenge himself stylistically and keep up his interest.

so yes, there was less action in this book then some, but I think it improved the book, and to those of you who want a more action packed style, I think ICE will be right up your street judging from RotCG, Se seems to have left lots fo threads for ICE to take up in TTH, so maybe you'll like ICE's darujhistan book more...