[bubba]

What about the Iron Monger? Where is that going. We know that Blend? has the info on the contract. Next book?

[HoosierDaddy]

Bubba;350722 said:

What about the Iron Monger? Where is that going. We know that Blend? has the info on the contract. Next book?

That's Humble Measure right? I'm sure we'll eventually see Blend, Picker, and Antsy get their revenge for Mallet and Bluepearl.

[Sinisdar Toste]

speaking of antsy, i loved gettin to know this old bugger more, a real red devil of a scot, i mean falari

[vrai]

Now I have to go back and re-read RG. I don't have a problem with subplots, but I can't see how so much is dedicated to this Redmask one, only to end with a whimper.

At the end of the book, they come upon Redmask, dead, and say he's Malazean.

The whole setup makes no sense at all though, not if the dead guy really is Redmask. He is the consumate pro throughout the first chunk of this subplot, then suddenly loses all his subtlety. What makes better sense is a Cotillion twist... he found a willing idiot to wear the mask and took off well beforehand. Malazeans seem to be willing idiots much of the time.

On second thought, it might be a better idea to see what others have thought in this forum... hmmm, nothing yet... ah, there it is, halfway down page two of RG. The thread is 'Redmask'.

Nope, I still think there isn't enough to say he's dead yet. Kidnapping a Letheri is one thing, kidnapping a Malazan a continent away is quite another.

[Greymane]

They don't say Redmask is Malazan, he's Letherii. It's set-up earlier in the book when it mentions that the Awl used to kidnap Letherii children and raise them as their own.

[Aptorian]

The redmask storyline was indeed pointless and Erikson left no indication that the story would continue. It's part of the reason to why I dislike RG and finds the book the worst of the series.

[Greymane]

I'm hoping it will tie into the K'Chan Che Malle. I'm guessing they'll be playing a bigger role in the next book.

[tiam]

Aptorian;350826 said:

The redmask storyline was indeed pointless and Erikson left no indication that the story would continue. It's part of the reason to why I dislike RG and finds the book the worst of the series.

On a reread it makes more sense. The errant says to menandore (i think) simply 'sky keeps' to which she replies 'ah it has begun'. This coupled with the Redmask storyline and DoD being set in Lether makes it likely that a KCCm threat will be answered by the barghast and bonehunters. Thats why i didnt like TTH. It introduced a wwhole new EG concept and a crap plot line with the whole kelyk thing.

[Aptorian]

I don't think the SKykeeps in the Imperial Warren are connected with the KCCM on Lether. One is an old Hive, survivors of the KCCM civil war and the incursion of the Tiste. The others might be refugee's from the moon.

[Imperial Historian]

Steve mentioned that things would be coming from the redmask storyline in the next two books, so there is no need to worry.

When you really think about it what did the storyline set up - the k'chain che'malle are active on the letherii continent, toc died and so could become the herald of death, brought the barghast back into play, demonstrated, and gave us lots of info into the letherii, and the letherii edur relationship. It's also about how the saviour of a civilisation can lead it to it's destruction, something SE has been playing around with a lot, and may have a role in later books.

So I personally don't have any problems with redmasks storyline.

As to humble measure, I believe we have to wait for ICE's 3rd or maybe 4th book.

[Illuyankas]

vrai;350733 said:

Now I have to go back and re-read RG. I don't have a problem with subplots, but I can't see how so much is dedicated to this Redmask one, only to end with a whimper.

At the end of the book, they come upon Redmask, dead, and say he's Malazean.

The whole setup makes no sense at all though, not if the dead guy really is Redmask. He is the consumate pro throughout the first chunk of this subplot, then suddenly loses all his subtlety. What makes better sense is a Cotillion twist... he found a willing idiot to wear the mask and took off well beforehand. Malazeans seem to be willing idiots much of the time.

On second thought, it might be a better idea to see what others have thought in this forum... hmmm, nothing yet... ah, there it is, halfway down page two of RG. The thread is 'Redmask'.

Nope, I still think there isn't enough to say he's dead yet. Kidnapping a Letheri is one thing, kidnapping a Malazan a continent away is quite another.

We asked Steve that very question at the BBQ. Yes, it IS the real Redmask, and yes, he IS well and properly dead. So, there we go.

[Abyss]

What about Skulldeath the monkey sword fighting lost prince from RG? man, that plotline went NO-WHERE....

I like the little less world shaking plotlines that SE weaves thru the story. And they are rarely entirely unconnected or pointless - Harllo's story concluded Murillio's, advanced Cutter's, concluded Stonny's who is relevant given her links to Krul and Gruntle AND ensured that Cutter brought the spear to where the Second could use it against the Lite Hounds.

The Redmask/Awl story advanced Toc's story, gave us history and hints at the KC storyline. The Shake storyline showed us various Tiste races had been living and getting their funk on with humans for millenia and also contributed to the KC information.

Point being, everything is connected and while there are degrees, nothing is irrelevant.

- Abyss, irreverent.

[Cause]

Abyss;356316 said:

What about Skulldeath the monkey sword fighting lost prince from RG? man, that plotline went NO-WHERE....

I like the little less world shaking plotlines that SE weaves thru the story. And they are rarely entirely unconnected or pointless - Harllo's story concluded Murillio's, advanced Cutter's, concluded Stonny's who is relevant given her links to Krul and Gruntle AND ensured that Cutter brought the spear to where the Second could use it against the Lite Hounds.

The Redmask/Awl story advanced Toc's story, gave us history and hints at the KC storyline. The Shake storyline showed us various Tiste races had been living and getting their funk on with humans for millenia and also contributed to the KC information.

Point being, everything is connected and while there are degrees, nothing is irrelevant.

- Abyss, irreverent.

The difference is skulldeath is flavour. The harlo red mask thin were entire chapters. Though I never had a problem with the red mask one, its harlo that drove me nuts

[Abyss]

Cause;356357 said:

The difference is skulldeath is flavour. The harlo red mask thin were entire chapters. Though I never had a problem with the red mask one, its harlo that drove me nuts

Oh cmon...wasn't Harllo finding that Imass down in the caves just a tiny bit cool?

Admit it - you liked it, even a little. Come on, no one will think less of you...


- Abyss, knows you want to....

[Cougar]

Subplots ad texture to stories, if they didn't exist then you pretty much just have Gemmell, entertaining but without depth. If Harllo hadn't gone missing then Murillo wouldn't have gone after him and died, Cutter wouldn't have killed that prick whose name I can't be arsed looking up. What made me laugh was the Imass part where he went after Raest and bombed out in the garden of the Azath

[Morgoth]

Cougar;356397 said:

Subplots ad texture to stories, if they didn't exist then you pretty much just have Gemmell, entertaining but without depth. If Harllo hadn't gone missing then Murillo wouldn't have gone after him and died, Cutter wouldn't have killed that prick whose name I can't be arsed looking up. What made me laugh was the Imass part where he went after Raest and bombed out in the garden of the Azath

Paraphrased from memory:

burried Imass
"the Gods are fools because it never occurs to them that not everyone uses paths."

And when antsy returns to the Azath at the end of the book, noticing the new grave, and Raest - i think - saying: he should have walked the paths

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

The thing to remember about all this is that not every part of the book is intended to drive the main plot. The point of a book is to entertain readers through an interesting story. If the subplots are interesting, which I thought but others might disagree, who cares if they are advancing the over-plot? I'm being entertained by the book, what more can I ask?

That said, the Redmask subplot if RG was a little much. Would have worked great as a separate novella after the series is over, when we're all pining for more malazan.

[drinksinbars]

i liked the redmask plot - i also liked the fact that in some ways you knew he wasnt an awl as he also talked about them as a seperate entity from himself as if he were an outsider. by the end of it, the awl have been wiped out and like ih says it seems to be a big plot point - just look at karsa!!! he is the epitome of saviour destroyer in tth with the captain. its pretty clear the tyrant plot is not done and according to others SE says ICE is handling that and thats cool enough for me.

also the stuff about harlo was a good insight into not only gruntle and stonnys life, the nature of the chained cult, the life of darujhistan, the plotting of the nobles, the tyrant plotline. morgo mention partof what raest said but he didnt say it all. He says that they will have a nice talk once the imass calms down, so despite that seeming to go nowhere i think its far from finished.

Plus it would be a pretty dull and short novel if all that happened was the main plot. all the stuff with the shake as well relates to nimader and co and that plot line was awesome in my views and may have been my favourite part of the novel. the one thinki have a problem with in that is in BH the say nimander is rakes first born and he is the father to phaed and the rest and had an affair with envy to get back at rake for sending him away with andarist. Then in reapers every calls nimander young and he is suddenly phaeds brother???? weird discrepancy

[Leanoric]

I am on the side of the people saying they like the side plots. Ultimately, what is the MBotF *about*? Well... you could say that is is about stopping the Crippled God, and neutralizing the threat from him, however that is done. I asked SE about this at the Milton Keynes signing - the series is building to the final confrontation with the CG - the title of the final book would have been evidence for this, even if Steve hadn't confirmed it.

But, are the books really all about the fight against the Crippled God? Nooooo.

Ok, maybe under the surface of (almost) every book you will find some way that the CG plot has been advanced (and that might be an interesting discussion for another thread), but mainly the books have been about the characters. Sure, I like it when Cutter (just to pick a character at random) does something that seems relevant to the over-arching plot, but I like it almost as much when we just get to find out what happens to him. Does his reaction to Murillo's death advance the overall plot? Nope. Does it advance Cutter as a character? You betcha.

The Harllo storyline seems to be the one getting the most kicking here. I can agree that in many ways it might seem irrelevant, but it *did* provide a lot of character advancement for lots of people. Without it Stonny would have stayed miserable and isolated (and maybe have one of the very few happy endings of the series?). Murillo would not have died, advancing Cutter. The T'lan Imass in the mines would not have been found and either a) missed setting something up for the eventual Tyrant storyline, or just provided a nicely amusing lesson about following paths. But even without all that, it was a touching little storyline. When Bainisk died it was really poignant.

I think SE does a very good job of balancing main plot and subplots. Unlike other authors of big serires (and I guess I'm mainly thinking Jordan here) I don't think SE has let his subplots spiral out of control. Everything touches everything else, and even the subplots have meaning and depth and insight.

Apart from Redmask.

No, just kidding. Although I do hope the whole 'mortal sword of KCCM' comes to something - it seemed by far the most significant part of Redmask's plot. The KCCM are active, clearly after something, and changing tactics to the point of employing (human) mortals to do some of their work. Sounds intriguing!

A final observation: SE likes to kill characters. And for that to have any meaning, we need to care about the characters. We care about them by seeing their lives, what they do, what they like, what they care about, their strengths and their flaws. The subplots are what gives us most of this. As Tiny Tim would say, 'God Bless them, every one!'.

Errr... don't know where that Tiny Tim quote came from. Maybe I was channelling Harllo.

[Abyss]

And Harllo skullfucking Vainisk with a rock was awesome.

- Abyss, loves a good rock to the skull now and then...